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New update for the hind


Denwagg
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51 minutes ago, Blackeye said:

 

Try this:

1) Trim for forward flight with a significant nose down attitude and the AP channels on (pitch, bank and heading) - you should end up somewhat stable with 250-ish kph.

2) Then use the cyclic to pull the nose up until it is pointing on the horizon in a somewhat stable flight without trimming (you will need to hold the stick aft a bit).

3) Then press and release the trim button and quickly return the stick to the center and watch what happens.

 

I would expect the helicopter to maintain the nose on horizon attitude in this case, however what happens is that it pulls up further and stabilizes with a nose up attitude of a few degrees forcing you to trim again if you want to achieve a stable nose-on-horizon trim.

 

You can also try the reverse or any larger change of attitude (banked for orbit, etc) and observe the same "over-correction" of the stick input you made on trim press and release.

This is with the "center trimming option" to avoid any stick input after setting the trim.

 

I don't fly like that I only use trim lock for takeoff. The rest of the time I use pov trim.

 

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I keep forgetting POV trim exists dangit. 
 

i don’t understand why trim lock would causes nose bump in the hind but not the hip, but I guess I’ll just remember to use the POV trim 

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They've got rid of the sudden tendency to pitch up very aggressively if you slightly overdid the nose up cyclic input, which is great. Now it's a far more intuitive, linear reaction. I'm liking the progress, good job so far.

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I was having a little less trouble with it in its pre-update state than some, but this is still a big improvement. Central position trimmer mode (the loud trimmer click is a great addition), depress and hold as you make your maneuver, release and center, fine-tune with trim hat - with all 4 AP channels on it's nearly as nimble as it is with them disengaged, and not twitchy at all. Proceeding under the plausible if by no means certainly correct assumption that the trim and AP systems are roughly comparable to the Mi-8, I applied the stick, rudder, and collective curves/saturation settings suggested in Chuck's Mi-8 guide and flying the Hind-F is easy, and at least feels pretty realistic, in the sense that it generally responds as one might reasonably expect a helicopter of its size, weight, power, aerodynamic surfaces, and control systems would. Some FPS optimization, folding mirrors, and a smarter Petrovich and it's pretty much there (subject to countless tweaks and revisions of course), at least from the back seat.

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1 hour ago, S. Low said:

I keep forgetting POV trim exists dangit. 
 

i don’t understand why trim lock would causes nose bump in the hind but not the hip, but I guess I’ll just remember to use the POV trim 

 

Yea given the fact the Hind flies with pretty much a neutral central cyclic S&L at around 250 knots it is much easier to just fly the Hind like the MD500/OH-6 Loach and use the trim hat to trim out any cyclic deflection as you fly if required.  

In contrast with the 'trim button and re-centre cyclic' - method, which after trying out last night following patching still has the same extra cyclic overrun issue after clicking the trim button as before - albeit slightly reduced.

 

The input It is also sensitive enough that you can easily achieve a stable 'hands-off' hover with 'bumps' of the trim hat - as opposed to say the Viper lateral trim that you can pretty much never achieve wings level with the trim hat due to the 'bumps' being too coarse.

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4 hours ago, Blackeye said:

 

Try this:

1) Trim for forward flight with a significant nose down attitude and the AP channels on (pitch, bank and heading) - you should end up somewhat stable with 250-ish kph.

2) Then use the cyclic to pull the nose up until it is pointing on the horizon in a somewhat stable flight without trimming (you will need to hold the stick aft a bit).

3) Then press and release the trim button and quickly return the stick to the center and watch what happens.

 

I would expect the helicopter to maintain the nose on horizon attitude in this case, however what happens is that it pulls up further and stabilizes with a nose up attitude of a few degrees forcing you to trim again if you want to achieve a stable nose-on-horizon trim.

 

You can also try the reverse or any larger change of attitude (banked for orbit, etc) and observe the same "over-correction" of the stick input you made on trim press and release.

This is with the "center trimming option" to avoid any stick input after setting the trim.

 

 

Yes you are correct. I have been holding the trim button down, fine tuning for stable flight with the cyclic and then releasing the trim button. I hadn't consciously realized this until I followed your example. I suppose this is "muscle memory" from flying the Ka-50 in DCS. A short press and release of the trim reproduces the attitude change you describe. A hold of the trim, fine tune the cyclic and then release the trim gives no attitude change.

 

I suppose the above happens because of the interplay between the AP channels and the trim. When you press the trim and release the AP channels are switched off and on quickly. I imagine this quick off and on of the channels causes the over correction you describe.  The difference with the hold and release method is that you have stabilized the attitude with the cyclic. On trim release the autopilot channels come on again but because you are in a stable attitude their input is almost zero -therefore no overcorrection.

 

I don't know whether the above is the way we are supposed to achieve a stable trim in the Hind or whether it is still bugged. I  am going to go back to the Mi-8 now and see how I actually trim that  - I am now unsure whether I do a quick trim press or press and hold!

 

Please bear in mind I know nothing about the real Mi-24P or helicopters in general so the above might be all wrong. However the hold trim, fine cyclic correction and release trim does seem to work and makes achieving trimmed stable flight possible which is an improvement from what we had before.

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14 hours ago, Blackeye said:

 

Not on my end - it still changes attitude after button release, perhaps less than before but it's definitely still there.

 

 

Same here.  By comparison, clicking the trim button in the Mi-8 doesn't temporarily disable the yaw and pitch channels, so you click it once, the virtual stick gets centered in the new position, and it stays there, just as if you were holding it manually.  No attitude changes after button release.  From what I can tell, in the Mi-8 there is no interaction between the trim and the autopilot at all, and if you want to change what the ap is biased for, you have to turn the knobs.  In the Mi-24, its temporarily disabling the ap channels, even if just for a split second, and as soon as they come back on, they screw up the trim you just thought you had set.  Different behavior than what we see in Mi-8.  Maybe the real life helicopters are just different in that regard, but If they are supposed to trim the same, then one of them is definitely modelled wrong. 

 

I really wish somebody that actually knew could give an answer to this question:  Do you need to depress and hold the trim button in the real Hind, or not?  Seems like a simple question with a simple answer!


Edited by Ornithopter
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The patch definitely got rid of the trim button causing the stick to 'step' in a certain direction over and over with repeated presses of the trim button for me, even with neutral 'real' stick (ie. pre-patch, the 'virtual' stick would 'step' in a certain direction on repeated pressing and releasing the trim button, even with the 'real' stick being completely neutral, which resulted in a large cumulative change). So there's definitely an improvement to how it works. The interplay between 'real' and 'virtual' sticks certainly adds a level of complexity absent from the real thing.

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I'm getting a tiny bit frustrated with the trim.  If I'm in a shallow and stable turn and click trim and quickly let go, it will push over in the direction I was banked.  I'm also noticing my yaw gets trimmed on its own even though I never enable anything except pitch and roll.

 

I tried different trimmer options but I can't find anything that works.  At least the trimmer hat helps me adjust my trim, but I'm definitely not flying this thing the way it should be flown.

run come save me

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PilotMi8 just confirmed that fix for AP/Trim issue wasn't included in the last patch. As far as I understood from his words, they missed including it by accident.
 

 

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5 hours ago, VitMax said:

PilotMi8 just confirmed that fix for AP/Trim issue wasn't included in the last patch. As far as I understood from his words, they missed including it by accident.
 

 

Thanks!  I wonder how come people are saying it's easier to fly.

run come save me

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2 hours ago, Scofflaw said:

I wonder how come people are saying it's easier to fly.


To be honest, I also feel that it is easier to fly. It feels less twitchy. If I had to guess, I'd say that devs lowered speed with which AP makes its inputs, so pilot has more time to react. Although, maybe, it's just self-suggestion 🙂


Edited by VitMax
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4 hours ago, Scofflaw said:

 

Thanks!  I wonder how come people are saying it's easier to fly.

It's always quite possible they also fixed FM aspects and tweaked errors.

It just flies way smoother and handles so much better.  Night and day.

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17 hours ago, Scofflaw said:

 

Thanks!  I wonder how come people are saying it's easier to fly.

IMO, they did change FM a bit. Autos are a lot more benign affair now. It still has that annoying pitch oscilation at 100-120 kph, but need to test if it's AP or FM bug. Everything else feel the  same to me

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17 hours ago, Scofflaw said:

 

Thanks!  I wonder how come people are saying it's easier to fly.

 

Probably because they have given up trying to use the trim button like you do on any other DCS helicopter...I know that my issues with it have decreased commensurate with my reduction in use of the system lol.

 

1 minute ago, admiki said:

IMO, they did change FM a bit. Autos are a lot more benign affair now. It still has that annoying pitch oscilation at 100-120 kph, but need to test if it's AP or FM bug. Everything else feel the  same to me

 

I believe it is a AP bug - pretty easy to just watch the pitch channel bar in the small AP window moving up and down all by itself while S&L, and if you cancel the pitch AP channel it immediately stops.

 

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On 7/23/2021 at 3:01 PM, VitMax said:

PilotMi8 just confirmed that fix for AP/Trim issue wasn't included in the last patch. As far as I understood from his words, they missed including it by accident.
 

 

 

So we had another patch with some stuff being corrected, but no changes mentioned to the AP on trim and no changes apparent ingame.

 

Can we get some clarity on what the status of this is? If it was simply forgotten then why wasn't it added in the hotfix? What is currently the expected date to have the trimmer issues resolved? Do I need to turn on google translate and dive into the Russian forum?

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2 hours ago, iLOVEwindmills said:

If it was simply forgotten then why wasn't it added in the hotfix?

Hotfix was released just two hours after PilotMi8 even realized that fix wasn't in the patch. By that moment contents of hotfix most likely were already finalized.

 

2 hours ago, iLOVEwindmills said:

Do I need to turn on google translate and dive into the Russian forum?

No need. There are no ETA on that fix on Russian forum.

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Hi, 

since the last update i have two questions.

 

Is there an way/option to fly without exhaust covers ?

I like those and they let the Hind look buffed up but it could be necessary. (weight)

 

 

When i chose a target for Petrovic (up/down) an overlay menu  for counter measures appeares also. My key bindings are messed up a bit  oO  )

I would like to change that but don't find the setting for  that (new?) overlay  in the setup. 🥺

 

hope you guys know what i mean .🥴


Edited by Deimos
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11 hours ago, VitMax said:

Hotfix was released just two hours after PilotMi8 even realized that fix wasn't in the patch. By that moment contents of hotfix most likely were already finalized.

 

Ah ok, my timelines were off then. I assumed there was more time in between. Hopefully see another hotfix next week.

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1 hour ago, Deimos said:

Is there an way/option to fly without exhaust covers ?


Mission creators can turn them off in each airframe settings. But if you're flying somebody else's mission, for example in MP, then no. It can only be controlled by mission creator.

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1 hour ago, Deimos said:

 

Hi, 

since the last update i have two questions.

 

Is there an way/option to fly without exhaust covers ?

I like those and they let the Hind look buffed up but it could be necessary. (weight)

 

 

When i chose a target for Petrovic (up/down) an overlay menu  for counter measures appeares also. My key bindings are messed up a bit  oO  )

I would like to change that but don't find the setting for  that (new?) overlay  in the setup. 🥺

 

hope you guys know what i mean .🥴

 

There is no separate binding for CM overlay. It's just AI menu left binding.

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