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Russia Showcases "Checkmate", An F-35 Competitor?


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On 7/24/2021 at 1:21 AM, G.J.S said:

Just an observation.

 

Going on what the mock-up displays, the intake could be relatively restrictive in maintaining airflow at AoA that could be expected in manoeuvre combat. Also the all moving V-tail has a hinge line that could cause blanking at high AoA similar to a T-tail, being blanked by airflow.

I fully understand that this isn’t really representative of a production article - many things can change - but as it is there seem to be a few design choices that aren’t really conducive to manoeuvrability. 
 

It will be interesting to see what this airframe becomes, but I think unless it undergoes a large layout change, it could be at a handicap straight off the bat.

 

 

How do you figure? "Scoope" inlet have less issues at high AoA than other configurations, at least in normal flight (non-inverted).

 

Then, did you notice the strakes and sharp LEX? Those would provide enough vortexes to keep the boundary layer close to the surface of the fuselage with probably less chances of vortex breakdown than is the case for F-35 since they managed to delete the LEX from the design to gain structural weight.

 

This sort of aerodynamic strakes configuration have been used in aircrafts such as IAI Kfir (before the canard), Mirage 2000, Eurofighter Typhoon, then LEX with F-18 and F-22 strakes with the addition of 70° swept LEX, they all have the same effect and retards the break down of vortexes and separation of the boundary layer from the fuselage at high AoA.

 

Note that in the case of those aircrafts, strakes are specificaly designed to enhence lateral stability, so they really have to reach those control surfaces to work.

 

The T-tail configuration is nowhere near to be designed to take advantage of those vortexes, the horizontal surface is not positioned for the purpose, not even that the of F-16 which is AoA limited for this precise reason.

 

Of course we might see a lot of changes in this design but so far I can't see much wrong with it, quite the opposite, it's a smart design with the strakes integrated close to the fuselage and LEX slightly forward, which helps with spreading their vortexes outward, better for roll control, you can guess that the strake vortexes "separate" the LEX vortexes from the zone of lower pressure behind the canopy which would prevent them spreading woutward and energize the ailerons...#

 

Just a guess, but that's how pressure zones works ine the case of F-35 (vortexes being "sucked" inward) and F-22 (vortex breakdown before the ailerons which caused DRYDEN to suggest their redesign from YF-22 to avoid structural damage due to aerodynamic bashing). Another wild guess is that the designers of this aircraft have encountered similar limitations with the effectiveness of the LEX and the vortexes they produced, just looking at the truncated wing tip trailing edge.

 

sukhoi-lts-checkmate-1.jpg


Edited by Thinder

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2 hours ago, Thinder said:

 

How do you figure? "Scoope" inlet have less issues at high AoA than other configurations, at least in normal flight (non-inverted).

 

Then, did you notice the strakes and sharp LEX? Those would provide enough vortexes to keep the boundary layer close to the surface of the fuselage with probably less chances of vortex breakdown than is the case for F-35 since they managed to delete the LEX from the design to gain structural weight.

 

This sort of aerodynamic strakes configuration have been used in aircrafts such as IAI Kfir (before the canard), Mirage 2000, Eurofighter Typhoon, then LEX with F-18 and F-22 strakes with the addition of 70° swept LEX, they all have the same effect and retards the break down of vortexes and separation of the boundary layer from the fuselage at high AoA.

 

Note that in the case of those aircrafts, strakes are specificaly designed to enhence lateral stability, so they really have to reach those control surfaces to work.

 

The T-tail configuration is nowhere near to be designed to take advantage of those vortexes, the horizontal surface is not positioned for the purpose, not even that the of F-16 which is AoA limited for this precise reason.

 

Of course we might see a lot of changes in this design but so far I can't see much wrong with it, quite the opposite, it's a smart design with the strakes integrated close to the fuselage and LEX slightly forward, which helps with spreading their vortexes outward, better for roll control, you can guess that the strake vortexes "separate" the LEX vortexes from the zone of lower pressure behind the canopy which would prevent them spreading woutward and energize the ailerons...#

 

Just a guess, but that's how pressure zones works ine the case of F-35 (vortexes being "sucked" inward) and F-22 (vortex breakdown before the ailerons which caused DRYDEN to suggest their redesign from YF-22 to avoid structural damage due to aerodynamic bashing). Another wild guess is that the designers of this aircraft have encountered similar limitations with the effectiveness of the LEX and the vortexes they produced, just looking at the truncated wing tip trailing edge.

 

sukhoi-lts-checkmate-1.jpg

 


I will still uphold my assumption, there are just a few things about the layout that scream “problem”. 

Unless they are relying on computers, even a donkey could fly if you strap a suitably programmed FCS to it, but first and foremost you need to learn from design errors or incompatibilities, and not ignore them because the computer can pick up the slack.

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1 hour ago, G.J.S said:


I will still uphold my assumption, there are just a few things about the layout that scream “problem”. 

Unless they are relying on computers, even a donkey could fly if you strap a suitably programmed FCS to it, but first and foremost you need to learn from design errors or incompatibilities, and not ignore them because the computer can pick up the slack.

 

Not the "things" you mentioned, for those topics, you are plain wrong, I don't think it's the Russian who need to learn a few things and I believe that they can teach more than a few western nations a few tricks about aerodynamics, and in some case, even Lockheed Martin, so you also figured that they haven't managed to do flow simulation by now?

 

I can see and describe the features they used and how they developed them to get the high AoA control efficiency they were looking for, those features are known and well documented, we know how they work and on which aircraft they work or not, I'm just wondering how you manage to miss that.

 

So according to you the "scoop" inlet is an issue here but not with Eurofighter Typhoon?

 

What was Herbst idea behind the original TFK 90 design and the choice of ventral inlets? Use of TVC and hyper maneuverability, which he went on to experiment with DRYDEN on the X-31 program, with exactly the same configuration, both Max 70° AoA during testing, but not according to you since it's Russian and you say so... Man, those topic dates from well before the 90s, try to keep up...

 

I asked you how did you figure your assumptions, now, did you bother having a look at a program like NASA F-18 HARV?

 

How will the hinge you mention disturb the airflow and cause an issue at high AoA when the region which is affected by vortexes in the best case is the top 2 tiers of the surfaces?  What was the reason for the addition of two vertical strakes on the fuselage of F-18? Vortex breakdown which caused aerodynamic bashing of the fins, not a viable solution on a VLO design, so a lot more of this aircraft design solutions make sens when you realize they probably know more about DRYDEN work than you do.

 

At high AoA those hinges are gonna be in an area of low pressure because most of the aiflow will have departed above them, plus, considering the aerodynamic forces in play, a monoblock solutions can provide more structural strength than a classic fin rudder configuration. Simple.

 

Feel free to elaborate as I have done, but in my comments there are no assumptions, only knowledge of basic aerodynamics solutions experimented by very serious people, from DRYDEN to NASA to Edward AFB on the topic of high AoA and post-stall maneuverability,  in particular use of vortexes and pressures, somewhat a bit more complexe than assuming that a few things scream problem without any technical substance to the argument.

 

My tip; read what I wrote and try to visualise what the airflow and wortexes are doing, if this is not obvious to you, then visit DRYDEN archives on the subject and there are tons of them.

 

And I forgot, no computer can compensate for a mediocre aerodynamic design.

 


Edited by Thinder

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44 minutes ago, Thinder said:

 

Not the "things" you mentioned, for those topics, you are plain wrong, I don't think it's the Russian who need to learn a few things and I believe that they can teach more than a few western nations a few tricks about aerodynamics, and in some case, even Lockheed Martin, so you also figured that they haven't managed to do flow simulation by now?

 

I can see and describe the features they used and how they developed them to get the high AoA control efficiency they were looking for, those features are known and well documented, we know how they work and on which aircraft they work or not, I'm just wondering how you manage to miss that.

 

So according to you the "scoop" inlet is an issue here but not with Eurofighter Typhoon?

 

Typhoon - has limited inlet spill due to the leading edge flap, and the - albeit curved - flat plate splitter. This new "checkmate" design has literally a fat gaping lip, the spill from the inlet edge I can envisage as being not insignificant, in part due to the forebody shape ahead of the inlet which will impart a 'parting' effect to the local airflow at higher AoA.

 

44 minutes ago, Thinder said:

 

What was Herbst idea behind the original TFK 90 design and the choice of ventral inlets? Use of TVC and hyper maneuverability, which he went on to experiment with DRYDEN on the X-31 program, with exactly the same configuration, both Max 70° AoA, but not according to you since it's Russian and you say so... Man, those topic dates from well before the 90s, try to keep up...

 

X-31 I remember well. TVC and a long moment arm via the canards give the research platform high AoA performance. Would be fairly good post-merge, assuming it lasts that long.

 

44 minutes ago, Thinder said:

 

I asked you how did you figure your assumptions, now, did you bother having a look at a program like NASA F-18 HARV?

 

HARV, yes I'm familiar with that program also. How do I figure my assumptions? Lets just say I'm 'very familiar' with aircraft.

 

44 minutes ago, Thinder said:

 

How will the hinge you mention disturb the airflow and cause an issue at high AoA when the region which is affected by vortexes in the best case is the top 2 tiers of the surfaces?  What was the reason for the addition of two vertical strakes on the fuselage of F-18? Vortex breakdown which caused aerodynamic bashing of the fins, not a viable solution on a VLO design, so a lot more of this aircraft design solutions make sens when you realize they probably know more anout DRYDEN work than you do.

 

The hinge - for the V-tail, the hinge is surprisingly high up away from the fuselage. That - along with the high angle - would lead to blanking of the surfaces at high AoA. If the hinge-line were lower and the angle not so great, then the blanking effect would not be so pronounced.

 

44 minutes ago, Thinder said:

 

Feel free to elaborate as I have done, but in my comments there are no assumptions, only knowledge of basic aerodynamics solutions experimented by very serious people, from DRYDEN to NASA to Edward AFB on the topic of high AoA and post-stall maneuverability,  in particular use of vortexes and pressures, somewhat a bit more complexe than assuming that a few things scream problem without any technical substance to the argument.

 

My tip; read what I wrote and try to visualise what the airflow and wortexes are doing, if this is not obvious to you, then visit DRYDEN archives on the subject and there are tons of them.

 

I have followed your tip. 

As for the reams of research papers on uber-maneuverability, a very large percentage of the findings point to types that would either be of limited utility in the real world, or represent idealistic end goals that require a great many preceding technologies to be developed before they can be used in any meaningful way. Some do find their way into production articles however, but only those that rely on . . . . . . I cant anymore, this is boring the pants off me enough that I am sat here firing skittles out my nose into the waste paper bin that's about 6 feet from me . . . I'm getting about 70% in though!

 

May I ask your background? BAe? Similar?

 

44 minutes ago, Thinder said:

 

And I forgot, no computer can compensate for a mediocre aerodynamic design.

 

 

 

True - its like putting lipstick on a Hippo.


Edited by G.J.S
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31 minutes ago, G.J.S said:

 

Typhoon - has limited inlet spill due to the leading edge flap, and the - albeit curved - flat plate splitter. This new "checkmate" design has literally a fat gaping lip, the spill from the inlet edge I can envisage as being not insignificant, in part due to the forebody shape ahead of the inlet which will impart a 'parting' effect to the local airflow at higher AoA.

 

 

Lots of assumption, ever heared of compression? For your info this splitter plate could be more efficient that that of Typhoon which requiered the scoop and also is the cause of the Mach limitation of the aircraft due to high frequency vibrations, ASK MOD for their report.

 

Quote

 Lets just say I'm 'very familiar' with aircraft.

 

So am I, only I don't throw this as a guaranty of aerodynamic features working or not.

 

Quote

The hinge - for the V-tail, the hinge is surprisingly high up away from the fuselage. That - along with the high angle - would lead to blanking of the surfaces at high AoA. If the hinge-line were lower and the angle not so great, then the blanking effect would not be so pronounced.

 

I understoud you first time and I reiterate, you're plain wrong. What does airflow does in the rear part of an airframe at high AoA? Completely ignore the effects of the sets of vortexes created by the strake and LEX, the fact the hinges at high AoA they would be in the weakest part of airflow and of course if you take this into account then your explaination falls flat...

 

The Russian stupid as they are, designedf a monoblock surface because they didn't need more structural strength and the effect of vortexes in their area is not causing the same sort of bashing than in the case of the F-18. Looks like you skipped more than a chapter in the HARV program, but also F-22, F-35, all affected by the same issue.

 

>>>

What part of VLO can't use vertical strake don't you comprehend? Meaning vortex and airflow will be above your beloved hinged and what problem did you envisage witrh this tail configurastion again?

 

3864152315-1de031b7a8-h-1-951x750.jpg

 

Take your pills mate...


Edited by Thinder

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13 minutes ago, Thinder said:

 

Lots of assumption, ever heared of compression? For your info this splitter plate could be more efficient that that of Typhoon which requiered the scoop and also is the cause of the Mach limitation of the aircraft due to high frequency vibrations, ASK MOD for their report.

 

 

So am I, only I don't throw this as a guaranty of aerodynamic features working or not.

 

 

I understoud you first time and I reiterate, you're plain wrong. What does airflow does in the rear part of an airframe at high AoA? Completely ignore the effects of the sets of vortexes created by the strake and LEX, the fact the hinges at high AoA they would be in the weakest part of airflow and of course if you take this into account then your explaination falls flat...

 

The Russian stupid as they are, designedf a monoblock surface because they didn't need more structural strength and the effect of vortexes in their area is not causing the same sort of bashing than in the case of the F-18. Looks like you skipped more than a chapter in the HARV program, but also F-22, F-35, all affected by the same issue.

 

>>>

What part of VLO can't use vertical strake don't you comprehend? Meaning vortex and airflow will be above your beloved hinged and what problem did you envisage witrh this tail configurastion again?

 

3864152315-1de031b7a8-h-1-951x750.jpg

 

Take your pills mate...

 

 

 

Okay . . . friendly warning now . . . be VERY careful. 

 

And if you must place a piccy of the YF-23, look where the hinge is for the tail, at any sort of AoA - the tail is in the airflow and little to no blanking.

 

Pills taken - what did you fly? And for gods sake - spellcheck!


Edited by G.J.S

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22 minutes ago, G.J.S said:

 

 

Okay . . . friendly warning now . . . be VERY careful. 

 

And if you must place a piccy of the YF-23, look where the hinge is for the tail, at any sort of AoA - the tail is in the airflow and little to no blanking.

 

Pills taken - what did you fly? And for gods sake - spellcheck!

 

 

Please spare me the fuse blowing bit. I flew enough and had great teachers.

 

You still can't comprehend the basics of high AoA aerodynamics, why would I notice the fact that you can't figure that you're wrong?

 

P.S they prepare testing for the first prototype, so as I thaught it is a lot more than a mockup...

 

Quote

“We have been working on the project for just slightly longer than one year. Such a fast development cycle was possible only with the help of advanced computer technologies and virtual testing,” Yuri Slyusar, CEO of United Aircraft Corporation (UAC), said at the event.

 

According to the manufacturer, the aircraft is already prepared for testing, which may mean that a prototype is either manufactured or is going to be prepared in the near future. No further information regarding the deadlines was revealed, although Russian media reports that there are plans to perform the maiden flight by 2023 and start deliveries in 2026. The aircraft has also not been purchased by the Russian military, which explains the lack of a model number. Slyusar explained that the development was an initiative of Rostec, using company's own finances.

https://www.aerotime.aero/28413-Russia-unveils-Sukhoi-Checkmate-new-light-fighter-jet

 

Here we go again...

 

Quote

at any sort of AoA - the tail is in the airflow and little to no blanking

 

1) Not all of it in the case of the Checkmate, 2) Not the hinges. 3) if this was the case, there would be no need for strakes and LEX to improve lateral stability and they took a great care of doing just that.

 

Now I wouldn't ask you the A from ABC on the subject, so I strongly recommand that instead of lecturing me in english you try to get FACTS right...

 

Quote

Some do find their way into production articles however, but only those that rely on

 

Sure thing: Strake, LEX, use of enhenced vortex lift, one more set of vortex on this Sukhoi Checkmate than on F-35, and just a little reminder, Russian aircrafts have been doing PSM for  a long time now...

#

Here if you ask nicely... LOL! You'll find the free student versions of CATIA and Fluent, this way you'll be able to get a crash course in flow simulation.

https://www.3ds.com/partners/products/100000000001407_PDT00000000362_FLUENT_for_CATIA_V5/


Edited by Thinder

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Congrats Thinder - you are my first 'Ignore'!

 

Your profile says 'retired', yet your spelling and general demeanor says mid 20's at a push. 

Your YouTube also says 'young person' in every way possible.

Enjoy.

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29 minutes ago, G.J.S said:

Congrats Thinder - you are my first 'Ignore'!

 

Your profile says 'retired', yet your spelling and general demeanor says mid 20's at a push. 

Your YouTube also says 'young person' in every way possible.

Enjoy.

 

Good. I'm done reading whatever in this forum. Take your time for studying the subject before reapearing.

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E67-NS8g-WQAc-Vj-Yh.jpg

 

Some interesting features...

 

Lift enhencing: Strakes. LEX. At 48° the wing behave like a delta so we have vortex lift and enhenced vortex lift exactly the same way as F-22 and Rafale (48°/70° LEX) with the junction LEX/wing we have a 3 vortexes system on this aircraft.

 

The LEX vortexes triggers the appearence of the wing vortex lift earlier in the AoA scale, meaning a high Cl/Cd coeficient; more lift at lower AoA, less drag for the same amount of G in a turn, faster acceleration from high G load to level flight (unloading), high level of control at high AoA better stall characteristics and often spin recovery etc.

 

The monoblock V-tail is aligned to the wing/LEX junction so it should beneficiate from the vortexes from all 3 sources which is good for control at high AoA but causes aerodynamic bashing demanding a high structural intergity, the hinges are there to support the structural efforts demanded to the tail which must really be submited to a lot of aerodynamic efforts due to the presence of strong vortexes.

 

For the record, F-18 had this issue and strakes were added on top of the fuselage to retard vortex breakdown, in the case of F-22, this solution (like is the case here) wasn't an option (VLO) so the fins front beams had to be changed for stronger ones made of a different material, the F-35, I can't bother, it lasted for ages, included material resonance, involved elevators and vertical surfaces and I don't even know if it has been fully sorted yet.

 

Just in front of the inlet one can see a zone of compression starting just below the FLIR (change of angle comparable to the Mig-21 inlet cone), this have for effect to compress the boundary layer in front of the inlet slow down the airflow and increase pressure, most noticeable from critical Mach to supersonic as speed increases but the boundary layer is redirected inside the inlets.

 

This aircraft should be very maneuverable and probably PSM capable, although I'm not into PSM as combat solutions, I think having the capability makes an aircraft more maneuverable overall simply because it has the right featurees for that...


Edited by Thinder

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3 hours ago, Thinder said:

Good. I'm done reading whatever in this forum. Take your time for studying the subject before reapearing.

  GJS is a fighter pilot, ala Mover etc

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4 hours ago, WRAITH said:

Northrop MRF-54E > SU-75 Similarities

 

Link:- https://military.wikia.org/wiki/Northrop_MRF-54E

 

E6smItcXEAEuWUi.jpg

 

Meet-the-new-Russian-stealth-fighter-Su-

 

 

Great find!!!

 

If I remember well, Northrop pionered the use of LEX with the F-5 series and YF-17...

 

E6u-Ftu-LXMBowl2-V.jpg

 

Here is Airbus conceipt for the FCAF.

 

E6-8vv4-XIAk3b-8.jpg


Edited by Thinder

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Think i'm gonna have to take a break form these forums for a while . The toxicity , obliviousness , breathless cluelessness , posturing and outright stupidity are starting to wear on me . 


Edited by Svsmokey
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On 7/21/2021 at 12:43 PM, kseremak said:

 

Yes, you miss the fact this aircraft doesn't exist. It may exist in the future if everything will go as planned. 

It's performance are marketing rounded assumptions before the real engineering challenges and required compromises took their toll in the real (not mockup) plane.

The only thing i know is it's planned engine, which is hoped to be ready in 2025, will have less power than today's F-35 so it will have to be lighter than F-35 to have similar T/W ratio. When F-35 is planned to receive even more powerfull, 45,000lbf (200kN) class, adaptive cycle engine in a few years.

 

In short you can use any data you want in the advertising materials for every futuristic project, but reality is verifying every plan.

 

It's a tad more complicated than that.

 

Everyone seems to be assuming that the Russians are inept at using tools such as CATIA and FLUENT, just a hint, Dassault-Aviation built their Falcon 7X to specs on CAD and simulation only including full certification a few years ago.

 

Quote

The Falcon 2000 was the world’s first aircraft to be designed with a digital mock-up. This allowed our engineers to clearly visualize the general layout, how parts fit together and how to optimize the location of systems and equipment within the airframe well in advance of production.

https://www.dassaultfalcon.com/en/Technology/SuperiorDesign/Pages/Architecture.aspx

 

On the other hand if you look at F-35 politico-industrial history, you'll figure that multiple changes in specification and what appears to be mediocre design team management lead to multiple design changes, weight target being missed, structural redesign that lead to unforseen aerodynamic issues etc, not exactly the best use of CAD, simulation and industrial capabilities.

 

There is nothing that can support the assumption that Sukoi have made the same mistakes and only looking at the mockup, one can say it has been developed using all the digital tools available in the market, which is the reason they give for its short development time.

 

So before being critical of the design, I'd wait a couple of years and see if this aircraft meets its requiered specs.

 

Sure thing, Russia still lags behind when it comes to metalurgy and engine design/efficiency but certainly not in aerodynamics and perhaps not even structural design, more to the point, TWR doesn't do everything for the performances of an aircraft, and this Sukoi seems to have been designed with high maneuverability in mind including high Cl/Cd L/D ratio and structural limits which are more than a factor in terms of turning performances, not the F-35 forte.

 

In short they don't look at the same performances targets at all, I'd say F-35 will have the upper hand in the L.O and systems dept and the Sukoi in performances and maneuverability.

 

 


Edited by Thinder

MSI B450 GAMING PLUS MAX 7B86vHB1(Beta version) BIOS, AMD Ryzen 5 5600X, EVGA NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB, 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ RGB (4 x 8GB) DDR4 3200 CL14, Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS HOTAS. My G2 is DEAD, I'll get VR again when headsets will be better.

M-2000C. F/A-18C Hornet. F-15C. MiG-29 "Fulcrum". 

Avatar: Escadron de Chasse 3/3 Ardennes.

 

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MSI B450 GAMING PLUS MAX 7B86vHB1(Beta version) BIOS, AMD Ryzen 5 5600X, EVGA NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB, 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ RGB (4 x 8GB) DDR4 3200 CL14, Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS HOTAS. My G2 is DEAD, I'll get VR again when headsets will be better.

M-2000C. F/A-18C Hornet. F-15C. MiG-29 "Fulcrum". 

Avatar: Escadron de Chasse 3/3 Ardennes.

 

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Google Translation:

Fighter of the fifth generation Checkmate will be assembled in Komsomlsk up Alexandra Murashchenko Send email via web interface.

 

The aircraft plant in Komsomolsk-on-Amur will assemble a new fifth-generation Checkmate single-engine fighter. This was announced during his visit to the city of Yunosti by Yuri Slyusar, General Director of the United Aircraft Corporation.

Today, July 28, the plant was visited by the Prime Minister of the Russian Federation Mikhail Mishustin.

The head of government examined the assembly shops for the production of military aircraft and talked with test pilots. KnAAZ takes part in the creation of the Checkmate light tactical aircraft, developed by the Sukhoi design bureau.

In 2021, the plant assembled a full-size aircraft demonstrator of the technologies of this promising single-engine fighter. Work is in progress on the creation of the first sample for static testing.

 

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MSI B450 GAMING PLUS MAX 7B86vHB1(Beta version) BIOS, AMD Ryzen 5 5600X, EVGA NVIDIA GeForce GTX 1080 Ti 11GB, 32GB G.SKILL TridentZ RGB (4 x 8GB) DDR4 3200 CL14, Thrustmaster T.16000M FCS HOTAS. My G2 is DEAD, I'll get VR again when headsets will be better.

M-2000C. F/A-18C Hornet. F-15C. MiG-29 "Fulcrum". 

Avatar: Escadron de Chasse 3/3 Ardennes.

 

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