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M-61A1 Sound?


mytai01
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1 hour ago, mytai01 said:

The sound is wrong. Not even close. HeatBlur didn't even bother to get the SME's input about the sound, or the sound of it's rate of fire. The available video evidence is more than sufficient to show that. It's not just the tone quality. It's also the very slow rate of fire. It maybe 4,500 rounds per minute, but it's definitely not 6,000 rounds per minute. Not even close. I don't care if I disturb, "fanboy," sentiments...

 

You have not provided any video of an F-14 shooting the gun, inside or outside. Clips of F-15E, F-15C, F-16C, and F/A-18C shooting the gun in strafing passes all sounded substantially different from each other. And even none of those passes were having the listener from the same angle, same duration of burst, nor are the guns in those jets mounted in even remotely the same way as the F-14.

 

I know of one camcorder clip of a Tomcat doing a gun pass, with typical 80s/90s camcorder quality. And as has been pointed out before, sound is a complicated subject depending on the angle it's being heard from, the speed of the object, and the Doppler effect.

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VF-11 and VF-31 1988 [WIP]

VF-201 & VF-202 [WIP]

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I have just reached a point where I fear that my own intellect is at risk of incretination by the sheer level of dumbass emanating from this thread, so I’ll be leaving now and I urge anyone else who values their grey matter to follow forthwith.

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1 hour ago, DD_Fenrir said:

I have just reached a point where I fear that my own intellect is at risk of incretination by the sheer level of dumbass emanating from this thread, so I’ll be leaving now and I urge anyone else who values their grey matter to follow forthwith.

 

Good move.

 

Before I go, I will reveal that M61A1 sounds like the one in the video above, but disgronificated to smooth the amplitude spikes and synchronize the nodal impurities in the fourth and fifth octaves.

 

Unless the aircraft is inverted, of course.

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8 hours ago, mytai01 said:

The sound is wrong. Not even close. HeatBlur didn't even bother to get the SME's input about the sound, or the sound of it's rate of fire. The available video evidence is more than sufficient to show that. It's not just the tone quality. It's also the very slow rate of fire. It maybe 4,500 rounds per minute, but it's definitely not 6,000 rounds per minute. Not even close. I don't care if I disturb, "fanboy," sentiments...

If deferring to the people with tangible experience that neither of us has the room to speak with authority about marks me as a "fanboy" in your estimation, then so be it. I've been called a lot worse by others whose opinions meant a lot more. And, I'm sorry, but I'll take their testimony over whatever YouTube video(s) you'll be presenting. They were there, you were not.

 

Go and die on this hill if it makes you feel vindicated, but this particular horse was beaten to death a long time ago, and I'm walking away. If Heatblur decides the gun's sound needs improved upon, they'll do it. If not, then I guess you'll just have to live with what might have been.

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Anyone who's engaging in this conversation does so with their eyes wide open. So, realize that I'm basing this issue on the fact that the gun in question is the same as used in the all the teen series fighters, and they do all sound the same from an external point of view (all other things being equal). And, I'm saying that they all sound the same in all of the jets that use it. That's in real life, and it should be the same in the game across the board, no matter what company made the module. But, the F-14 is far from the rest of the modules in that area...

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The M61A1's maximum rate of fire for the teen series fighters is 6,000 rounds per minute. That's 100 rounds per second. That is 100Hz.

 

Below is an online tone generator capable of doing 100Hz

 

https://www.szynalski.com/tone-generator/

 

Of course, this can only simulate the rate of fire without the sound of the acceleration and deceleration of the barrels. ED does a great job of adding that effect to their version of the M61A1...


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On 8/7/2021 at 8:17 PM, mytai01 said:

The sound is wrong. Not even close. HeatBlur didn't even bother to get the SME's input about the sound, or the sound of it's rate of fire. The available video evidence is more than sufficient to show that. It's not just the tone quality. It's also the very slow rate of fire. It maybe 4,500 rounds per minute, but it's definitely not 6,000 rounds per minute. Not even close. I don't care if I disturb, "fanboy," sentiments...

 

And you know this from your thousands of hours flying the Tomcat?

 

Do you see the problem here? You're making a fool of yourself flat out making these claims because... of feelings?

On 8/11/2021 at 6:44 PM, Blinde said:

You can just use the sound from F-16 or F-18 and place it to F-14 folder. I made a mix-up with HBs original sound and EDs.

 

You can't, because the same gun won't sound the same in different airframes. A lot of what you perceive as "the sound" is vibrations going through the fuselage/cockpit/helmet/ear protection. You don't actually hear "the gun" as it is on a test stand, like some optimistic guys here are pretending. Couple to this that the actual gun itself is in different positions, behind you, under you... all that has an effect on "the sound".

 

Your solution? It's pure fantasy based on zero audio evidence.

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OK, I'm gonna hopefully end this right here any now:

1. Have you actually flown an F-14A/B/D Tomcat in the real world, or did you work on the real aircraft as ground crew?

2. If the answer to 1. is 'yes', then prove it.

3. If you can prove it, then please provide HB and ED with actual evidence of what the gun should sound like in the correct conditions. IE, in the cockpit, at speed and altitude, and with the same equipment the pilot and RIO wears for an internal sound, as well as the actual sounds for close, medium, and long distances away, and varying angles.

Now, if you can somehow pull off all three, then maybe, maybe things will get done. But right now all this rings of is akin to a German model railroad enthusiast griping about how the railings on a locomotive not even in use in Germany isn't the right thickness for the scale. There are far, FAR more important things for Heatblur to worry about right now, like getting the Early A and Iranian Tomcats out, finishing/improving Jester, finishing Forestall, getting Typhoon out, finishing the Viggen, getting the AI A-6 in our hands, and finally, getting the piloted A-6 ready for eventual release. Trust me when I say that for a company, all of those are far more important than the sound of gun that most of us will only ever use in less than 1% of air to air engagements (I've scored all of two A/A kills with the gun in the last year, vs dozens with the various missiles)

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On 8/13/2021 at 3:34 AM, FWind said:

 

The narrator states that the gun footage is at 1/2 speed. Also, none of the weapons sounds are the actual footage shown. They always added sound in these DOD videos in post production for the audience. However, the gun sound was probably taken from another video of a test firing from a ground test rig. It may not have even been an F-14's gun. It could have been any other M61 test firing. We'll never know.

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On 7/24/2021 at 1:11 PM, captain_dalan said:

As it's made by a completely different team, i don't find that to all that surprising. Artistic license and all that. I guess a lot of it is a matter of taste?

I'm pretty sure that these sounds are recordings of the real equipment, where possible. ED said they were able to record their sounds for the F/A-18 from the real thing. Something like the Vulcan canon should be a no brainer to get a decent recording of. They don't even need it to be from an F-14. Any aircraft firing the Vulcan would do...However, what the hell is Heatblur using for it's gun sound?

On 7/24/2021 at 2:28 PM, LanceCriminal86 said:

 

You must be new here

I've been blazing trails on ED's forum since 1995/6... I started the thread that gave us the, "Pink Flanker."

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On 7/25/2021 at 1:49 AM, Skysurfer said:

I honestly think the gun in DCS sounds awesome and could give less of a damn whether it's accurate or not - I wouldn't know. There is no footage or HQ sound from the cockpit shooting the gun last time I checked and only former crew will be able to tell you. It's also called artistic freedom in sound design. 

I agree that ED has done a great job on it's modules that simulate the M61A1 (FC3: F-15C, F-16C, F/A-18C). I'm just slamming HB for not doing the same! The same gun type means the same gun sound. If DCS wasn't trying to be the most accurate simulator a consumer could fly, and if there wasn't already a huge amount of video examples of real Vulcans firing, and if ED hadn't done such a great job of making a realistic sounding gun (that matches those videos), then I wouldn't care about HB's version. But, ED sets the standard in DCS. If a module is going to be in DCS, it has to meet standards. I want HB to meet the same standards as ED on that one small, but important, point to me...use good quality recordings of a Vulcan, and learn to make the gun sound ED made...

 

 

Make it right!

 

Even, "The Final Countdown" has a good accurate gun sound! Mover, even says so...and he's flown the F-16 & F/A-18, both M61 armed aircraft. There's no good reason that that gun would ever sound different from one platform to another firing at the same RPM.

 

That's all the evidence that anyone should need. Those of you that insist that no one can take a position unless you've actually been in an F-14 are ignoring logic and reasonable extrapolation from all the available evidence. That evidence is more than sufficient to show that HB doesn't have it right! That same logic also applies to the sound from inside the cockpit...


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On 7/27/2021 at 5:33 PM, r4y30n said:

Alright, I’m gonna stop ya right there.

There’s no reason the gun would sound the same in the cockpit of each fighter equipped with it. The 14 has the gun under the pilot, the 15 has it way out there past the engine nacelle, the 16 has the gun behind you with the muzzle almost next to your face. A lot of what you’ll hear of the gun from the cockpit is vibration transmitted through the structure which, you may have guessed, is different in each aircraft. Sure, it’ll sound similar in each case, but not the same.

Play a guitar in a garage. Then play that same guitar in a recording studio. Same instrument, different sound.

What are you asking for, anyway? Have HB copy and paste the files from one of ED’s modules just for the sake of them sounding the same? When has HB ever copied anything from anyone else? The alternative is going out to record the gun on a real working F-14. I don’t the equipment or visas to go to Iran and do that work, do you?

The quality of the ED M61A1 sound effects is miles ahead of whatever the source of HB's M61A1 sound effects is...

On 7/27/2021 at 6:15 PM, lunaticfringe said:

So just to be clear, you lead with a video that has the sound approaching the microphone from the barrel side- ergo, a wholly different position from that inside the cockpit, and with said sound coming at the recipient from a state of pure closure, rather than receding; Doppler shift being a thing with sound related to how it passes through a medium- air, versus air and through the airframe, each of which would give different harmonic properties.

You then follow up with a video that has five different relative microphone positions in the first minute- all of which show substantially different tonal qualities based on position, speed of the firing platform, and firing speed mode of the cannon. 

 

That is, six different installations and recording positions, six different sounds, and not a single one of them from in inside the cockpit.  But you're demanding "accuracy". 

To which I say- accuracy to which example?

 

It's not that difficult to extrapolate a much more accurate sound than the one HB chose. The firing rate alone is way off, let alone the tone of the shots...

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On 7/27/2021 at 8:31 PM, draconus said:

So just a hunch and feeling - not enough to make a reasonable change.

Nope. Based on comparison of many videos of the real M61A1, listening to the HB version from different positions inside and outside of the cockpit, and plain reason. HB's sound choice is crap!

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On 7/29/2021 at 4:31 AM, DD_Fenrir said:

 

Wow. I love how sure he is that he's right! That's just funny.

 

Guess he knows more than someone who's actually flown a the F-14 AND fired the gun... 🙄

 

 

 

 

Shockingly, there are more than enough real life examples we can extrapolate from on YouTube alone. ED obviously did there home work, and did a great job of simulating the M61A1...

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On 8/1/2021 at 6:24 PM, BreaKKer said:

Nice to see a whole bunch of self proclaimed SMEs in here with nothing but video evidence as compared to someone who has fired the real gun in the real jet 😄

Why do people think you have to have been an actual pilot and have fired the gun to know anything? That's just ridiculous! We have more than enough evidence to know the facts. The same exact gun is used in many aircraft and there are plenty of videos that show us the gun in action with sound, but despite that, you can't accept it unless an F-14 pilot blesses your determination of the obvious facts. That's not being humble, that just being obtuse. The aircraft wrapped around the gun does not change the nature of the gun, or its sound. In every example, the gun fires the same way at 6,000 rpm, is close to the aircrew, and the same sound transmits through a mostly aluminum and steel structure to the pilot. The type aircraft will determine the direction the sound comes from, but not the character of the sound. It's still going to be a sound that quickly accelerates to, and vibrates the cockpit at 100Hz (6,000 rpm), then stops suddenly as the trigger is released. The only videos that would be completely off, would be those that are in slow motion, or those that show the gun firing at the slower 4,500 rpm rate of fire. None of this is what the HB sound simulates... So, how did HB simulate their sound? Whatever it is, is not anything approaching 6,000 rpm rate of fire...

On 8/1/2021 at 11:21 PM, Slant said:

Discussion should have ended with the lack of an in-cockpit video with studio level recording equipment...

 

I've thought about sound issues with the Tomcat a lot, and I always come back to... "But all I know are bad quality 80/90s camcorder videos with shitty microphones that you wouldn't even put in a cheap smartphone these days... I don't actually know!" And on top of that, people forget that pilots (ie. WE) wore all kinds of ear protection; headphones and helmets and stuff, even if you have a pristine studio level recording of the inside of a cockpit, it's not what the pilots would have heard! 

 

There are enough other type aircraft firing the same gun that you should know it doesn't sound any different. At least, not significantly enough that you could tell blindfolded...

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On 8/2/2021 at 11:30 PM, Southernbear said:

Quite frankly, I don't give a shit how the thing sounds...hell it could sound like Seth Rogan laughing for all I care, the only thing that matters to me is HB's much more accurate modelling of the true dispersion of the M61 compared to the fucking shotguns we seem to have on the F-15, 16 and 18.

The dispersion issue is different, and I have no information on that subject...

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On 8/5/2021 at 12:56 PM, Victory205 said:

I wasn’t around when most of the module was created, nor have I commented on the gun sound one way or the other. However I can assure you this, I remember exactly what firing the gun sounded like, and can without reservation state, young obsessed Brian, that you don’t, and will never have standing to claim otherwise. 

 

 

 

I bring up an issue, (mind you, about a game) and get dogpiled by people that truly don't know what they are talking about. I offer the best evidence that a layman can bring...videos of other type aircraft shooting the SAME gun, both in the cockpit, and on the ground. All the aircraft types I mention are of the same basic construction...a metal tube with a pilot seating a few feet from said gun. How is the exact same gun noticeably different in sound profile in one aircraft to another? What I have is enough basic logic to know that the exact same gun isn't going to sound noticeably different between F14/15/16/18. Not like the difference between HB's version and the rest of the ED modules that simulate the same gun. That difference isn't accounted for. I'll grant you that, "Anchors Aweigh" does sound different from, "Wild Blue Yonder," but Vulcans all sound the same...🤨 The only difference in the cockpit could only be direction from whence it came (aircraft type dependent), and the intensity of the sound (dependent on the mass between the gun and pilot, which is still aircraft type dependent).

On 8/5/2021 at 12:56 PM, Victory205 said:

I wasn’t around when most of the module was created, nor have I commented on the gun sound one way or the other. However I can assure you this, I remember exactly what firing the gun sounded like, and can without reservation state, young obsessed Brian, that you don’t, and will never have standing to claim otherwise. 

 

 

 

BTW, this is an important fact to those that think SME's are judging every tiny detail of a module. They aren't! Victory205 stated, "...nor have I commented on the gun sound one way or the other." As such, the quality of the sound is definitely open for dispute...

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On 8/6/2021 at 9:05 AM, Nexus-6 said:

You're not giving the SMEs enough credit.  The people Heatblur went to for help weren't just well read enthusiasts.  This was what they did.  It was their job.

 

For context, I'll give you an example:

 

In 1994, through familial connections, I was given the opportunity to observe F-16s making gun runs at a large ground target on their practice range at Shaw AFB.  That was 27 years ago, and to this day, I can still recall exactly what it sounded like.  Do you understand?  That was once.  I was just a kid, barely into middle school, and nearly 30 years later it sticks in my memory like crazy glue.  I can recall everything.  The sight(s) of the jets rolling in, the sounds of the gun, the impacts of the projectiles...all of it.  People like Victory205, who lived and worked around the F-14 for years, would certainly be capable of articulating the sum of their experiences with arming and firing the M61A1.  It was their job.

 

Is it going to be 100%?  Of course not.  The audio, obviously, had to be recreated from a combination of SME recollections and whatever audio/video records they can find.  But I trust Heatblur, and I trust their passion for the project.  And when they tell us that they're getting as close as anyone possibly can, given the availability of resources, I take them at their word, because they have access to far more detailed information than everyone else.

 

That's what it ultimately boils down to in the end.  This thing called, "faith".  Do you trust Heatblur to deliver what they've promised, or not?

Well, I have yet to see an M61A1 with a muffler on it...perhaps they put carpet in the F-14's cockpit? No, they all sound the same...14/15/16/18...more importantly the M61A1's of the world all sound the same...

On 8/6/2021 at 9:24 AM, eatthis said:

is it accurate or not? 

Right???

On 8/6/2021 at 1:38 PM, Q3ark said:

I’ve been watching this thread for a while and I have to say it is getting utterly ridiculous in here, this is beyond rivet counting, it’s just madness. Some of the behaviour and attitudes displayed is appalling. 

I think it's par for the course in online commentary over a subject that people disagree with. It's not going to kill anyone...

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On 8/7/2021 at 3:07 AM, Bogey Jammer said:

I hope you're not talking about me. If it's the case, let me rephrase my post to ease your pain a little bit (although you'd better simply stop watching this topic if you suffer so much)

In the videos I've included, we can notice that even the same recorded scene can produce radically different sounds depending of microphone type and location. That means that the OP's point is a lost cause anyway. However it would still be interesting to hear about the SME guy's experience, just for the enjoyment to know more about the job. Could the gun sound be heard at all ? Did it produce bass/high pitched noise only ? Could vibrations be felt ? I don't ask directly because I always have the feeling to commit a sacrilege every time I post in the F-14 forum…

 

So let's pretend the base sound of the DCS F-14's gun is realistic. I'm just confident that an acceleration effect should be implemented to help immersion. In the videos I've posted, we definitely can hear that. The lack of acceleration phase is the only issue I have with this virtual gun. That's all I needed to say in the first place, and I'm sure that will not stop the planet to spin.

The HB sound effect sounds like a single sound file representing the whole sound profile, both inside the cockpit, and from the outside observers point of view. ED made theirs a complex affair with the windup, and pitch, in both an internal cockpit version and an external version. A much more detailed offering.

On 8/7/2021 at 6:21 AM, DD_Fenrir said:


He did. Several posts ago. Which should have put an end to this nonsense but there’s no accounting for ignorance apparently…

You mean, when Victory205 said he made no comment one way or the other? Okay...

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