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M-61A1 Sound?


mytai01
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Discussion should have ended with the lack of an in-cockpit video with studio level recording equipment...

 

I've thought about sound issues with the Tomcat a lot, and I always come back to... "But all I know are bad quality 80/90s camcorder videos with shitty microphones that you wouldn't even put in a cheap smartphone these days... I don't actually know!" And on top of that, people forget that pilots (ie. WE) wore all kinds of ear protection; headphones and helmets and stuff, even if you have a pristine studio level recording of the inside of a cockpit, it's not what the pilots would have heard! 


Edited by Slant
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Quite frankly, I don't give a shit how the thing sounds...hell it could sound like Seth Rogan laughing for all I care, the only thing that matters to me is HB's much more accurate modelling of the true dispersion of the M61 compared to the fucking shotguns we seem to have on the F-15, 16 and 18.

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On 7/24/2021 at 10:15 PM, mytai01 said:

Are you kidding???🤦‍♂️  It sounds like every other M61A1 Vulcan cannon in DCS World...🙄 It sounds the same as the F-15/F-16/FA-18, and every other aircraft that carries the same type gun! Did you think they put a muffler on the F-14 gun? 🤣

 

 

 

are you deaf? it sounds nothing like the f16 or f18 gun. ive no idea which if any are accurate but they absolutely do NOT all sound the same

f14 sound 



f16 sound

 


Edited by eatthis
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None of the internal sounds in the Tomcat are realistic, as admitted by HB.  The sounds have been designed to ultimately provide for user feedback and immersion and "artistic freedom" has been used. 
 

I personally trust ED's sounds are more realistic since they have access to real life sounds when HB does not for the Tomcat.  Also, HB has seemed to go for a more entertainment Hollywood blockbuster feel with the Tomcat where ED is much more by the book, military, real world realism and accuracy with their modules.


Edited by Donut
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If you want realistic sounds in the cockpit, increase the volume of the ECS sound files to the point where its the only thing you hear because thats what it reportedly was like. 

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5 hours ago, Southernbear said:

Quite frankly, I don't give a shit how the thing sounds...hell it could sound like Seth Rogan laughing for all I care, the only thing that matters to me is HB's much more accurate modelling of the true dispersion of the M61 compared to the fucking shotguns we seem to have on the F-15, 16 and 18.


This!! Yes please, I want it to sound like Seth Rogan laughing his arse off!! 

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I'm not half as concerned about the in cockpit sound of the gun as the external sound. I'm putting together a YouTube video on the subject. I'll publish it when it's done. I think that all the companies should be on the same programming/sound file page when simulating the same equipment. All the M61 Vulcans should use the same program and sound files. That would be an issue for ED and the third party developers to decide to hash out. I'm sure there would be some barriers, but Heat Blur can do better than they have even on their own...

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As for those of you who think the SME's have staked their reputations on the sound of the gun, that's ridiculous. These guys haven't flown the Tomcat in years. If they don't have their own sound files to remind them of how everything sounds in the aircraft, then it'll escape their memory to the point that they'll just say, "that's close enough to what I remember." I'm sure they aren't going to labor the point too hard. However, ED did a great job, and they set the standard on the matter as far as I'm concerned. BTW, the other F-14 sounds have been an issue since they released it. In fact, I helped point out one of the engine issues that fixed! Things have gotten better, but the gun is just too off... If you don't personally care, then why defend it?

On 8/2/2021 at 11:35 PM, eatthis said:

are you deaf? it sounds nothing like the f16 or f18 gun. ive no idea which if any are accurate but they absolutely do NOT all sound the same

f14 sound 



f16 sound

 

 

I didn't do a good job of explaining myself. I was referring to the real jets and guns, not the DCS simulated sounds... The real teen series fighters guns are all M61A1 and all sound the same in real life. That's why I'm arguing for it to be so in the simulator. I don't care if Heat Blur is a different company. They're still a part of DCS and they should have to maintain a certain consistency for the DCS World sake. I assume there are standards that each company must maintain to be a part of the DCS World...

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16 hours ago, Callsign JoNay said:

Have you tried any of the audio overhauls? I've heard good things about this one, but I don't know if they've reworked the gun.

 

https://official.echo19audio.com/downloads

I know there are mods for just about everything, but I'm more interested in seeing the thing fixed.

On 8/1/2021 at 6:24 PM, BreaKKer said:

Nice to see a whole bunch of self proclaimed SMEs in here with nothing but video evidence as compared to someone who has fired the real gun in the real jet 😄

And, more than likely doesn't remember enough, or care enough, to push for perfection? He probably said, "good enough to me!" These things require video/audio to really remember. An old guy from decades ago isn't going to remember that accurately simply because no one would! Can you remember the details of sounds you've experienced in life? I'd say not things from the past so well.

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I wasn’t around when most of the module was created, nor have I commented on the gun sound one way or the other. However I can assure you this, I remember exactly what firing the gun sounded like, and can without reservation state, young obsessed Brian, that you don’t, and will never have standing to claim otherwise. 

 

 


Edited by Victory205
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21 hours ago, mytai01 said:

An old guy from decades ago isn't going to remember that accurately simply because no one would! Can you remember the details of sounds you've experienced in life? I'd say not things from the past so well.

You're not giving the SMEs enough credit.  The people Heatblur went to for help weren't just well read enthusiasts.  This was what they did.  It was their job.

 

For context, I'll give you an example:

 

In 1994, through familial connections, I was given the opportunity to observe F-16s making gun runs at a large ground target on their practice range at Shaw AFB.  That was 27 years ago, and to this day, I can still recall exactly what it sounded like.  Do you understand?  That was once.  I was just a kid, barely into middle school, and nearly 30 years later it sticks in my memory like crazy glue.  I can recall everything.  The sight(s) of the jets rolling in, the sounds of the gun, the impacts of the projectiles...all of it.  People like Victory205, who lived and worked around the F-14 for years, would certainly be capable of articulating the sum of their experiences with arming and firing the M61A1.  It was their job.

 

Is it going to be 100%?  Of course not.  The audio, obviously, had to be recreated from a combination of SME recollections and whatever audio/video records they can find.  But I trust Heatblur, and I trust their passion for the project.  And when they tell us that they're getting as close as anyone possibly can, given the availability of resources, I take them at their word, because they have access to far more detailed information than everyone else.

 

That's what it ultimately boils down to in the end.  This thing called, "faith".  Do you trust Heatblur to deliver what they've promised, or not?

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20 hours ago, Victory205 said:

I wasn’t around when most of the module was created, nor have I commented on the gun sound one way or the other. However I can assure you this, I remember exactly what firing the gun sounded like, and can without reservation state, young obsessed Brian, that you don’t, and will never have standing to claim otherwise. 

 

 

 

is it accurate or not? 

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What about barrel rotation acceleration ? In DCS F-14, is it ok to sound like it spins at full rate instantly when pressing the fire button ?

 

 

 


Edited by Bogey Jammer
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I’ve been watching this thread for a while and I have to say it is getting utterly ridiculous in here, this is beyond rivet counting, it’s just madness. Some of the behaviour and attitudes displayed is appalling. 

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I hope you're not talking about me. If it's the case, let me rephrase my post to ease your pain a little bit (although you'd better simply stop watching this topic if you suffer so much)

In the videos I've included, we can notice that even the same recorded scene can produce radically different sounds depending of microphone type and location. That means that the OP's point is a lost cause anyway. However it would still be interesting to hear about the SME guy's experience, just for the enjoyment to know more about the job. Could the gun sound be heard at all ? Did it produce bass/high pitched noise only ? Could vibrations be felt ? I don't ask directly because I always have the feeling to commit a sacrilege every time I post in the F-14 forum…

 

So let's pretend the base sound of the DCS F-14's gun is realistic. I'm just confident that an acceleration effect should be implemented to help immersion. In the videos I've posted, we definitely can hear that. The lack of acceleration phase is the only issue I have with this virtual gun. That's all I needed to say in the first place, and I'm sure that will not stop the planet to spin.

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After all this back and forth, we still can't get a straight answer...I don't know if the HB Tomcat's gun sound is correct or not, but we can all agree that it sounds nothing like any real life recording of the M61A1.

 

For goodness sake, can we just get an SME to say...yeah, the Tomcat sound is spot on, or it's wrong and being fixed?  End of discussion.  Is it top secret or something!?

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On 7/28/2021 at 4:15 PM, mytai01 said:

With all these aircraft, the only thing that really matters is this: 6,000 rounds per minute at the normal high fire rate. Even if the gun is positioned in slightly different places in the different types of aircraft, it isn't going to change the sound the pilot hears in any radical way.

I am sure a Land Rover Discovery V8 sounds much the same as a TVR 350i. Same engine, different installations.


Edited by Baldrick33
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41 minutes ago, Baldrick33 said:

I am sure a Land Rover Discovery V8 sounds much the same as a TVR 350i. Same engine, different installations.

 

different exhausts which makes a MASSIVE difference to sound

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1 hour ago, eatthis said:

different exhausts which makes a MASSIVE difference to sound

It isn't just the exhausts but the whole acoustics of the car body and what the sound is travelling through before it gets to our ears. The amount of resonance of a kit car installation compared with a large luxury SUV doesn't bear thinking about. Even how well the windows seal and the amount of noise coming through the car and travelling from outside the car makes a massive difference to the sound of the same engine. The point is there is no guarantee the same gun will sound identical in each aircraft it is fitted depending upon where it is being installed and the sound the airframe adds as part of its individual acoustics. Not saying any one is right but the belief they should sound exactly the same is IMHO flawed.

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2 hours ago, Donut said:

After all this back and forth, we still can't get a straight answer...I don't know if the HB Tomcat's gun sound is correct or not, but we can all agree that it sounds nothing like any real life recording of the M61A1.

 

For goodness sake, can we just get an SME to say...yeah, the Tomcat sound is spot on, or it's wrong and being fixed?  End of discussion.  Is it top secret or something!?


He did. Several posts ago. Which should have put an end to this nonsense but there’s no accounting for ignorance apparently…

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31 minutes ago, DD_Fenrir said:


He did. Several posts ago. Which should have put an end to this nonsense but there’s no accounting for ignorance apparently…

Ignorance...?  If you want to talk about ignorance than I suggest that you read the post again.  He states that he has not commented on the gun sound one way or another.  Translation...we still don't have confirmation if the gun sound is right or wrong.

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23 hours ago, Nexus-6 said:

You're not giving the SMEs enough credit.  The people Heatblur went to for help weren't just well read enthusiasts.  This was what they did.  It was their job.

 

For context, I'll give you an example:

 

In 1994, through familial connections, I was given the opportunity to observe F-16s making gun runs at a large ground target on their practice range at Shaw AFB.  That was 27 years ago, and to this day, I can still recall exactly what it sounded like.  Do you understand?  That was once.  I was just a kid, barely into middle school, and nearly 30 years later it sticks in my memory like crazy glue.  I can recall everything.  The sight(s) of the jets rolling in, the sounds of the gun, the impacts of the projectiles...all of it.  People like Victory205, who lived and worked around the F-14 for years, would certainly be capable of articulating the sum of their experiences with arming and firing the M61A1.  It was their job.

 

Is it going to be 100%?  Of course not.  The audio, obviously, had to be recreated from a combination of SME recollections and whatever audio/video records they can find.  But I trust Heatblur, and I trust their passion for the project.  And when they tell us that they're getting as close as anyone possibly can, given the availability of resources, I take them at their word, because they have access to far more detailed information than everyone else.

 

That's what it ultimately boils down to in the end.  This thing called, "faith".  Do you trust Heatblur to deliver what they've promised, or not?

The sound is wrong. Not even close. HeatBlur didn't even bother to get the SME's input about the sound, or the sound of it's rate of fire. The available video evidence is more than sufficient to show that. It's not just the tone quality. It's also the very slow rate of fire. It maybe 4,500 rounds per minute, but it's definitely not 6,000 rounds per minute. Not even close. I don't care if I disturb, "fanboy," sentiments...

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You do know the tomcat has a low and high rof setting for the gun? Jesus christ there are many (mostly little) things you would want HB to spend time on but trying to get the gunsound 'right' from low quality recordings and SME memory is really not one of them. 

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