investigating Inconsistent ACM mode undesignate behavior

[Bankler]

Sorry in advance that this post is rather long and brings up a mix of questions/bugs/weirdness/speculations. Let me know if you want me to break it up and report it in another way. I'd be happy to. I start with this though, as it might explain the big picture of what's happening.

 

I have been confused what the undesignate button does in the different ACM mode. My expectation is that it should break lock AND return to RWS (or whatever mode you were in before you entered ACM). But after reading in the DCS manual on what RTS means I understand that the indication under RTS indicates what you'll go back to if you press undesignate at that point. 

So in DC, if you don't have a lock, it will go back to RWS. If you have a lock, it will instead go back to the ACM mode you were in before you acquired the lock. Fair enough, I personally don't think it's correct, but makes somewhat sense. However, I believe some things are rather strange:

 

1) If I have an aircraft right in front of me (let's say a friendly tanker), that I have locked up with BST, I find no way to break that lock using HOTAS. If I press undesignate, it will go back to BST, and immediately re-acquire it. I guess it's possible that it works this way, and have no proof of the opposite. However, since pressing SCS FWD in this scenario does the exact same thing (break lock and re-enter BST), it would be far more useful for the undesignate button to bring you back to RWS, or at least wait 1 second before re-acquiring the target, so that you can go to RWS by pressing undesignate twice in rapid succession.

 

2) To break the lock after having locked something with BST, I have to maneuver to get the target away from my nose. Undesignate does nothing if he's still in front of me, so I can't break lock with HOTAS. Even if  I go heads down, pressing the RTS BST does nothing (which I guess can be expected, and trying to "unbox" ACM does nothing. Neither does RESET. It just keeps the lock.

 

3) While BST and VACQ both works in this (strange?) way, WACQ does not. It says RST WACQ when you lock something in WACQ, but if you press undesignate in this scenario, it will bring you back to RWS regardless. (This is actually useful, see below, and is likely how every ACM mode should work)

 

4) If you have the JHMCS enabled, there is yet another behavior. In HACQ, if the target is off to you side, it works just like in BST/VACQ, in the sense that it returns the HACQ when you break the lock (and if you look at him while pressing, it will immediately reacquire). However, if you press undesignate when the target is inside your hud, the lock will break. You will still be in HACQ, but the radar will no longer lock the target up, until you exit HACQ and re-enter it, or maneuver so you get the target on your side, and look at it through the JHMCS only (not the HUD).

 

Remark:

 

To break a BST lock when the contact is still right in front of you, as a workaround, currently you can: 

1) Press SCS Left to enter WACQ.

2) Press undesignate to break lock and return to RWS.

 

OR

 

1) Turn on the JHMCS (if you have one).

2) Press undesignate twice.

Hornet_AACQ_2.trk Hornet_AACQ.trk

Edited July 12, 2021 by Bankler
Adjusted some details regarding what's the likely correct implementation

[BIGNEWY]

22 minutes ago, Bankler said:

My expectation was that it should break lock AND return to RWS (or whatever mode you were in before you entered ACM). 

 

Hi Bankler, do you have any information that says that it should return to the previous mode? 

 

I will ask the team

 

thanks

[Bankler]

1 hour ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

Hi Bankler, do you have any information that says that it should return to the previous mode? 

 

I will ask the team

 

thanks

Regarding the current implementation: I only read what it says in the DCS F/A-18C manual, and correlated that to what the current behavior is (or at least "kind of", except it's somewhat different in different ACM modes).

It currently works like a stack: If you're in TWS, go to BST, and lock something, as long as you turn away from the target (getting him off your boresight), pressing undesignate will take you back from STT -> BST -> TWS. And if you were in in RWS, it will brings you back from STT -> BST -> RWS. 

My assumption (and what a credible source tells me) is that it should instead take you immediately back to RWS/TWS (and if you really want to go back to BST instead, you simply press SCS Fwd again). If it wouldn't work like this, then it brings up the question "how do you then undesignate something that's in front of you if you locked him up in BST?".

Edited July 12, 2021 by Bankler

[BIGNEWY]

it looks like it has been reported or is related

I will add your thread to the report.

 

thanks

[Bankler]

7 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

it looks like it has been reported or is related

I will add your thread to the report.

 

thanks

 

It's only vaguely related. But I'm sure you guys will iron this stuff out one way or another. Thanks!

[BIGNEWY]

I will ask Wags to take a look here when he is active to be sure. 

 

thanks

[oldcrusty]

4 hours ago, Bankler said:

 

It's only vaguely related. But I'm sure you guys will iron this stuff out one way or another. Thanks!

 

I'm not sure if that's related at all.  I've just tried getting in and out of ACM modes. First, with guns selected. I haven't noticed any issues. Once in GACQ, pressing undesignate serves as a reject/lock a different target within radar's FOV. It could be useful, especially when flying cover for a shooter during ACM or simply switching targets. When pressed, the radar will try to lock a different target within FOV, if no other targets found in 2 sec. (?) the original target is re-locked. The only way to get out of radar ACM mode is by switching to a different weapon and pressing undesignate. I believe this is correct.

With other A/A weapons selected and switching radar to ACM modes... I haven't found any consistent way to get out of it, including reset.  Yea... going to WACQ can create enough time 'gap' before re-acquisition and pressing undesignate within that time will get the radar out of ACM, although I ran into some inconsistent behavior there too. Going to guns and then switching to other weapons and pressing pinky should get us out of ACM also but that's too much fumbling. Double clicking undesignate button sometimes work. We should be able to get out of ACM by pressing undesignate once, from what I gather. 

Also, WACQ is acting 'different' then in previous builds. When entered, I could only see the horizontal bar on the HUD. When I pressed TDC, both axes showed up and were slewable. This also brings me to another question. So far, I noticed WACQ is horizon stabilized. I vaguely remember reading something about WACQ having also a 'frame' stabilized mode. I think it could be toggled between the 2 with TDC...  Well, I'm just flailing around. I'm sure SMEs can get the message across to the devs. 

[Jak525]

Here is a flow chart I made a while ago of how the Hornet should return to search. (Excuse lack of prettiness it was some free app I got on my phone lol). Hope this can alleviate any confusion.

 

RTS (Undesignate button, hitting "RTS" on the screen etc) should never go to any of the ACM search modes. To go back to any of them from STT, you just use the castle switch. But RTS only ever takes you back to RWS/TWS.

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Jak525

[oldcrusty]

39 minutes ago, Jak525 said:

Here is a flow chart I made a while ago of how the Hornet should return to search. (Excuse lack of prettiness it was some free app I got on my phone lol). Hope this can alleviate any confusion.

 

RTS (Undesignate button, hitting "RTS" on the screen etc) should never go to any of the ACM search modes. To go back to any of them from STT, you just use the castle switch. But RTS only ever takes you back to RWS/TWS.

 

 

 

Nice flow chart, thanks.  So it looks like RTS takes you pretty much where you were, except when using guns or with Amraam in flight. Sounds good. 

Can you confirm WACQ having 2 stabilization modes and... is there any reason why currently only horizontal axis shows up until TDC is pressed. I'm not sure if anyone else experienced this.

[Jak525]

41 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

 

Nice flow chart, thanks.  So it looks like RTS takes you pretty much where you were, except when using guns or with Amraam in flight. Sounds good. 

Can you confirm WACQ having 2 stabilization modes and... is there any reason why currently only horizontal axis shows up until TDC is pressed. I'm not sure if anyone else experienced this.

Yes, Wide Acq is either caged or uncaged. TDC depress to uncage. In caged WACQ there will be no "+" shape. Scan volume is rotation stabilized but will point where the nose is with regard to pitch. Uncaged WACQ has a plus shape and is totally stabilized and slewable. Pitching the jet won't point the scan. Rather, it will be slewable and horizon stabilized. And again in both caged and uncaged WACQ the scan is roll stabilized, as represented by the rectangle on the HUD.

[oldcrusty]

2 hours ago, Jak525 said:

Yes, Wide Acq is either caged or uncaged. TDC depress to uncage. In caged WACQ there will be no "+" shape. Scan volume is rotation stabilized but will point where the nose is with regard to pitch. Uncaged WACQ has a plus shape and is totally stabilized and slewable. Pitching the jet won't point the scan. Rather, it will be slewable and horizon stabilized. And again in both caged and uncaged WACQ the scan is roll stabilized, as represented by the rectangle on the HUD.

 

Thanks, It actually works the way you described it currently in DCS. I found some more info on WACQ, it all confirm what you said. The exclusion times for bump acq. were a bit longer (10sec) then in the sim currently but... that's a non-issue for me.

[pcoud]

@Jak525,  very interested in your flowchart , but I don't understand: 

1) what do you mean by "uncommanded return to search (RTS)" ?

2) "Pilot commands return to search" means either pilot hits RTS on screen or pilot depresses undesignate button, am I correct ?

3) what is "VS" ?

Thx 

[Tholozor]

1 - If the lock is dropped, either via masking, gimbal limit, notching, etc. I would classify that as 'uncommanded.'

2 - Above the flow chart he specifies that Return to Search is either pressing the Undesignate button or pressing the RTS option.
3 . Velocity Search.

[pcoud]

Many thx @Tholozor

Now I feel like a noob... what is velocity search ? 

[Tholozor]

Velocity Search is a radar mode that sorts contacts by their speed/velocity. If you had 2 contacts at the same range, but different speeds, VS would show them differently.

 

VS also has greater detection range on hot aspect contacts compared to RWS/TWS, but the tradeoff is that it can't correlate them with MSI tracks since it ignores range.

Edited July 13, 2021 by Tholozor

[pcoud]

Thx