Ball call procedure

[raus]

I am not sure about the real procedure, but have been readin a bit, and I understood the ball call procedure is initiated from the carrier, isn't it? Like:

 

- LSO: 402, 3/4 mile, Call the ball

- 402: 402, Ball (Clara), 4.1

- LSO: Roger ball

 

At the moment, if I am not doing something terribly wrong, it's the player initiating the comm. If wrong, please let me know, what am I missing

 

Thanks!!

[Steel Jaw]

Sounds right to me, bro.

[raus]

Yeah, maybe I did not explain myself. In my first post, that's the dialog I would expect. However, when flying towards the carrier, after the "Marking mom" call, and later the "See you at ten" one, hen I do the CASE I pattern, and fly into the groove, the LSO is not automatically contacting me, so the dialog is only:

 

- 402: 402, Hornet Ball, 4.1

- LSO: Roger ball

 

So I am missing the "402, 3/4nm, Call the Ball" communication from the LSO, and I am not sure if it is due to my mistake in comms, missing something, or if it is not implemented

[Steel Jaw]

Yeah the LSO doesn't initiate for me either.  I dont think thats a feature yet.

[Golo]

As I understand it during IRL, cyclic ops, daylight VMC (CASE I) there should be no communication at all past initial inbound call (Marking mom). You should have your marshal altitude (stack) already assigned, you have baro, BRC, and Charlie time from mother. Nothing else is required and unless there is a safety of flight issue its zip-lip all the way to the deck. Once you are in the groove LSO should flash cut lights once to acknowledge implied ball call (no ball call is actually made), and maybe give you some correction in the groove, thats it. Things are different and there is lot more talking during CASE II, III, and CQs tho. 

 

Edit: There are great docs about carrier operations here -

 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Golo

[Pieterras]

@raus 

What you assume is something that is very misunderstood within the community.  There is no such thing as the LSO saying 3/4mile call the ball.. There is also not such a thing as the LSO saying "paddles contact" all the time. 

First you need to understand that the boat can operate either CQ or Cyclic... (CQ to gain or re-gain qualification, and Cyclic is the Normal way of operation) 
During CQ Case I a ball call is made. It would actually be something like "206, Hornet ball, with your last name". 

During Cyclic Case I a ball call is NOT made.. The whole idea of cyclic ops is to reduce emissions and protect the boats position. 

Another thing you need to understand is that during case I or II there is no such thing as 3/4 of a mile... VERY MISUNDERSTOOD IN DCS...
During a case I or II, the groove length is based on time.. Ideally 15 to 18 seconds.. FORGET THE 3/4 of a mile and NEVER use it again when speaking about case I or case II.

During Case III a ball call is always made..  AND during case III the 3/4 of a mile comes into play... 
Now how would that go... 

-You commence on Marshal  BTN 16
-You will then be transferred to Approach on either BTN 15 or BTN 17... every other aircraft will be on a different button to declutter the frequency.
-At 8 miles the final approach controller takes over by saying XXX, Final radar contact... ( HE WILL BE ON THE SAME FREQUENCY AS THE APP CONTROLLER ) 
-At 3/4 of a mile the FINAL APPROACH CONTROLLER will say something as 204, On course, on Glidepath 3/4 of mile call the ball... 
-You will reply with you're modex, type, ball, (and possibly AUTO) 
-THEN the LSO will answer with a roger, ball something like "Roger ball, X knots" or Roger ball, x-knots, port, starboard, axial. 
“Axial” is used for a starboard wind of about 3 knots. “Starboard” is used for a starboard wind of 4+ knots. “Port” is used for a port wind of 3+ knots

@Golo After the initial marshal call, there will still be a "see you at 10" Marshal will then transfer you to TWR and you will NOT check-in with tower during Cyclic.. This is where the ZIP-LIP starts.  I made a video that explains it all. 

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Pieterras

[oldcrusty]

Now, the last name call...  that would apply when CQ'ing initially as part of VT, wouldn't it?  That reminds me of 'Right Stuff" scene when Sheppard (was it?) was lining up in the groove in his little A4...  "My name Jose..." 

[raus]

@Pieterras thanks for the clarification, very instructive

 

Actually, after posting I was doing some more practice and reading, and realized on CASE III there was aball call, and it should not be present in other cases, as you explained... so all fine. I stand corrected, and will enjoy applying more realistic procedures

 

Thanks a lot!

[TimRobertsen]

On 7/14/2021 at 10:05 PM, Pieterras said:

During CQ Case I a ball call is made. It would actually be something like "206, Hornet ball, with your last name". 

You'll have to excuse me if this is really stupid question, but do you know why they state which type of aircraft it is in "ball-call"

"206, Hornet ball, ..."

[raus]

IIRC, they need to know the aircraft type to adjust the tension of the arrestor cables accordingly. 

[TimRobertsen]

21 hours ago, raus said:

IIRC, they need to know the aircraft type to adjust the tension of the arrestor cables accordingly. 

Ahh, is that also why remaining fuel-amount is stated?

[r4y30n]

IFLOLS also has to be adjusted per aircraft type because hook/eye distance varies. In fact, that’s caused a lot of issues with the F-14 because it wasn’t being adjusted in DCS. You’ll call the ball as “101, hornet ball” and be guided in like a hornet and catch a 1 or 2 wire because the hook is further back.

[TimRobertsen]

3 hours ago, r4y30n said:

IFLOLS also has to be adjusted per aircraft type because hook/eye distance varies. In fact, that’s caused a lot of issues with the F-14 because it wasn’t being adjusted in DCS. You’ll call the ball as “101, hornet ball” and be guided in like a hornet and catch a 1 or 2 wire because the hook is further back.

Hmm, it seems hasty/risky to adjust the IFLOLS as late as when an aircraft is allready in the groove.

I would have guessed that the IFLOLS, and the wire-tension, would have allready been set before an aircraft enters the groove, thus making the aircraft-distinctions redundant in the ball-call.

This is a bit of nitpicking on my part, but I was just curious of the underlying reasons for it.

[Stearmandriver]

It's a measure of redundancy, a last chance to verify the next expected aircraft type was correct and the gear is set correctly. Easy enough for confusion to exist in aircraft sequencing I would think, depending on who might have been boltered / waved off, or spun etc.

 

It's also a reason the Super Hornet is nicknamed the Rhino at the ship.  A name was needed that sounded nothing like "Hornet"; especially critical since the two aircraft look so similar but one is so much heavier. 

 

My guess would be that the fuel state being included in these calls is more for LSO / air boss awareness of that aircraft's tank state - how many more looks at the deck he gets before diverting or heading to tanker (or I guess being barricaded in a really critical situation).  But maybe fuel weight is considered in arresting gear settings as well; that I don't know. 

[Slant]

On 7/12/2021 at 9:27 AM, raus said:

I am not sure about the real procedure, but have been readin a bit, and I understood the ball call procedure is initiated from the carrier, isn't it? Like:

 

- LSO: 402, 3/4 mile, Call the ball

- 402: 402, Ball (Clara), 4.1

- LSO: Roger ball

 

At the moment, if I am not doing something terribly wrong, it's the player initiating the comm. If wrong, please let me know, what am I missing

 

Thanks!!

 

If radio comms is involved, you call the ball when you see it. You don't have to wait for the LSO to prompt you. But when he does, your comms example seems good enough, the 3/4 mile is more of a CASE III thing, in CASE I you are visual anyway.

 

If you're doing CASE I in silent radio conditions, the ball call is omitted, the LSO flashes the cut lights to signify that you are entering the groove and everything's good for you and that's it (as far as I can tell). You would then also get visual indicators via the IFLOLS to indicate if you need to climb or descend, or if indeed, you are waved off.

On 7/20/2021 at 11:20 AM, TimRobertsen said:

Ahh, is that also why remaining fuel-amount is stated?

 

Yes.

[Slant]

On 7/21/2021 at 11:54 AM, TimRobertsen said:

Hmm, it seems hasty/risky to adjust the IFLOLS as late as when an aircraft is allready in the groove.

I would have guessed that the IFLOLS, and the wire-tension, would have allready been set before an aircraft enters the groove, thus making the aircraft-distinctions redundant in the ball-call.

This is a bit of nitpicking on my part, but I was just curious of the underlying reasons for it.

 

There's a reason why ball calls are omitted in normal ops. This stuff is typically preplanned down to the second. But of course you can imagine that the difference between an itty-bitty A7 and the Tomcat was pretty severe back in the day. It's good to double check if there's no reason to go ziplip. Safety first. The Navy has learned many lessons from accidents, their rules are written in blood typically. Doesn't always seem immediately obvious why they do things the way they do it.

[sirrah]

Reading some of the very informative posts in this thread make me wonder.. Assuming you guys know what you're talking about (perhaps even from real life experience?), why did ED implement apparently faulty communication procedures for at least CASE I and II recoveries?

 

I mean, before the SC module, we didn't have any proper comms. I can't imagine ED just making stuff up or base their new comms system on unfounded assumptions.

 

Or is everything just WIP at the moment?

 

 

 

(Btw; I just read that the "say needles" callout is also not correct during ICLS approaches. It would be for ACLS as I understood)

Edited July 24, 2021 by sirrah

[Pieterras]

ED's comms are not by definition wrong.. they just operate the boat constantly as CQ. or during Case I and II at least. 
All voices used in DCS are from ex real life hornet drivers and all calls are correct (apart from the altimeter setting in the response to the "airborne" call during a case III departure. 

You are correct about needles... Although there is more to it.. 
Normally the final approach controller would say: "say needles" and the hornet is normally equipped with the ACLS, however in DCS it is not. (yet)
Symbology for the ICLS is referred to as bullseye.  

So a correct reply to say needles would be... "negative needles" for an aircraft without ACLS. 

 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Pieterras

[Pieterras]

@TimRobertsen  I see in some of the replies given, some informs that is not entirely correct. @Slantseems to have a good grip on the theoretics (if that’s even a word). However fuel has nothing to do with gear settings. During normal Ops, single weight settings are used.
 

The fuel state call is for fuel tracking purposes. Fuel states are updated frequently, and there can only be so much time before an update is required again (by procedure).

 

Often in Marshal or whatever if you’ve been there a while you’ll hear a “305, say state” just so they can get an update. Just the nature of the beast when flying around the ocean with a place that’s tough to land at.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Pieterras

[Steel Jaw]

With SuperCarrier, I call the ball, trap, then get a no grade for no LSO comm.

[fagulha]

On 7/25/2021 at 11:35 AM, Mower said:

With SuperCarrier, I call the ball, trap, then get a no grade for no LSO comm.

Please note that call the ball command must be within 0.7nm or else you get a BC (Ball Call) No grade / no proper comms. Check that first please and give feedback if you wish.

 

EDIT: Just to be clear i was refering only to DCS.

Edited September 5, 2021 by fagulha

[Pieterras]

ILL GIVE UP.... 

 

[AstonMartinDBS]

On 7/14/2021 at 10:05 PM, Pieterras said:

I made a video that explains it all.

What an excellent video! Thanks for the clear explanation of cyclic ops @Pieterras.

Can you share the mission from the video?

Edited August 27, 2021 by AstonMartinDBS