SA-2 Minimum engagement altitude/range

[Bearfoot]

Does anyone know where I can find this info? As it relates to DCS of course? 

 

Alternatively, I guess if we knew what specific variant DCS is modeling and whether it is modeled accurately, we could look it up here

[Stearmandriver]

I use the Hoggit threat database for such info. Can't vouch for its accuracy other than I tend to plan my tactics based on it and usually live unless I do something dumb haha. 

 

https://wiki.hoggitworld.com/view/Threat_Database

[Bearfoot]

Thanks!

 

I did look at that, but it seems the SA-2 information is missing or "TBC"?

[Stearmandriver]

Huh!  I... never noticed that! Sorry haha. 

[Northstar98]

You used to be able to look this stuff up in the respective database .lua file, which defined all of these things.

 

Unfortunately "due to popular demand" they've all been hidden.

[AdrianL]

15 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

You used to be able to look this stuff up in the respective database .lua file, which defined all of these things.

 

Unfortunately "due to popular demand" they've all been hidden.

Still can see the values via https://github.com/Quaggles/dcs-lua-datamine

[Stearmandriver]

Hey, that's a great tool, thanks! 

[Bearfoot]

Thanks.

 

That database has lots of info. 

 

It's a little tricky to figure out. I see many unit types have "min_alt_finding_target" (e.g., "SA-11 Buk LN 9A310M1", given as "20", or "Gepard" or "HQ-7_LN_SP", given as "0"), but many others do not (e.g., SA-10, SA-2, SA-6 etc.). Which does not make sense.

 

[Tippis]

5 minutes ago, Bearfoot said:

Thanks.

 

That database has lots of info. 

 

It's a little tricky to figure out. I see many unit types have "min_alt_finding_target" (e.g., "SA-11 Buk LN 9A310M1", given as "20", or "Gepard" or "HQ-7_LN_SP", given as "0"), but many others do not (e.g., SA-10, SA-2, SA-6 etc.). Which does not make sense.

For the most part, that's because the limitations are set up somewhere else — the systems you're mentioning are all multi-part, so the limits may be set up in the search radar, the tracking radar, the CC, in the individual carrying vehicles, or just in the missiles themselves. The SA-11 has this too, as it happens, it's just that the “LN” is a TELAR with its own guidance and thus needs to also be handled as if it were a single-unit system (because it partly is).

 

To figure it out, you have to sift through all the components, and even then, each component will generally apply limits to specific situations or modes — search mode will have better (or worse) target tracking limits than the track mode, and both might be more (or less) than the missile itself is then capable of.

[Bearfoot]

8 minutes ago, Tippis said:

For the most part, that's because the limitations are set up somewhere else — the systems you're mentioning are all multi-part, so the limits may be set up in the search radar, the tracking radar, the CC, in the individual carrying vehicles, or just in the missiles themselves. The SA-11 has this too, as it happens, it's just that the “LN” is a TELAR with its own guidance and thus needs to also be handled as if it were a single-unit system (because it partly is).

 

To figure it out, you have to sift through all the components, and even then, each component will generally apply limits to specific situations or modes — search mode will have better (or worse) target tracking limits than the track mode, and both might be more (or less) than the missile itself is then capable of.

 

I'm searching through the entire repo though for text patterns, so it should pick it up.

The key issue is whether or not I've got (and am understanding) the parameter name correctly.

 

For example. here is a a search through the entire repo for all occurrences of "min_alt"

 

[Tippis]

7 minutes ago, Bearfoot said:

I'm searching through the entire repo though for text patterns, so it should pick it up.

The key issue is whether or not I've got (and am understanding) the parameter name correctly.

 

For example. here is a a search through the entire repo for all occurrences of "min_alt"

Quite. I don't remember the full list off the top of my head, but almost everything altitude related has at least three different overlapping parameters. So good luck  

 

Some have that min_alt, some have something along the lines of “minimum target altitude”, some have altitudes defined as elevation angles, and I'm pretty sure there's at least one more way of defining it — maybe it was minimum flight altitude of the missiles…

 

When I dug through the old database to figure out the numbers for https://www.airgoons.com/w/DCS_Reference, I had to do a whole lot of cross-referencing to make it all fit together, and only rarely was something set up the same way for multiple systems. The self-contained single-vehicle ones were usually the easiest, but even then, it wasn't consistent.

[Bearfoot]

4 hours ago, Tippis said:

Quite. I don't remember the full list off the top of my head, but almost everything altitude related has at least three different overlapping parameters. So good luck  

 

Some have that min_alt, some have something along the lines of “minimum target altitude”, some have altitudes defined as elevation angles, and I'm pretty sure there's at least one more way of defining it — maybe it was minimum flight altitude of the missiles…

 

When I dug through the old database to figure out the numbers for https://www.airgoons.com/w/DCS_Reference, I had to do a whole lot of cross-referencing to make it all fit together, and only rarely was something set up the same way for multiple systems. The self-contained single-vehicle ones were usually the easiest, but even then, it wasn't consistent.

 

Well, you did an excellent job!

 

All the info is at that link, very clearly presented, and with lots of nice, enriched detail!

 

Thanks!

[Nealius]

328' minimum engagement altitude for the missile and 82' minimum altitude for the Fan Song is not correct. The Fan Song typically drops lock when targets are passing below 2,200' per Tacview data. At which point it also vanishes from the RWR. 

Edited July 24, 2021 by Nealius

[Tippis]

Those are the limits as defined by the unit (and missile) in the database, and thus reflects what the game thinks they're capable of. How the AI then makes use of that capability is a very different matter.

 

It will quite happily engage a target at 500', but even though the radar is capable of lower altitudes, the (lack of) logic of the system will make it break lock if you go outside missile parameters and dive below 300:ish. It's reluctant to start engaging targets at such low altitudes, but once it's got you pegged, it will also quite happily re-engage you the moment you pop up above minimum missile altitude.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Tippis