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Hind - Ludicrous Speed - GUV-8700 Gun Pods


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2:40... So it's not just me and my rig then... using this completely max's out both CPU and GPU as seen in fpsVR and FPS drops dramatically. Can be fun... but a really bad option for multi-player servers as it currently stands. 

 

I know this is just early release - but wondering if there's any plans to correct this (if it's even possible) - or if it will remain as is.

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2 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

2:40... So it's not just me and my rig then... using this completely max's out both CPU and GPU as seen in fpsVR and FPS drops dramatically. Can be fun... but a really bad option for multi-player servers as it currently stands. 

 

I know this is just early release - but wondering if there's any plans to correct this (if it's even possible) - or if it will remain as is.

It's not a Hind thing but an engine thing I think. If you equip a Huey with all guns and let go you have the same effect.

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55 minutes ago, nazradu said:

It's not a Hind thing but an engine thing I think. If you equip a Huey with all guns and let go you have the same effect.

 

Thanks for that. I guess that answers the question "Will it be fixed"..... nope. 

 

In the UH-1 - you'd need 2 others to be present to have them all going at once for that long I suppose - as I've never hit issues with the AI. More noticable with the Hind since the pilot controls the lot. 

 

I wonder what the plan will be for multiplayer servers. I can see trolls bringing down online stations by simply letting loose with these cannons all the time as unlike the Huey - a single player can do this at the airport they're rearming from and rinse and repeat. As much as I hate to think this way - I can see this being a problem. Only takes one or two trolls to be a pain.

 

I'm not hosting a MP server myself but I sure hope that there are ways to deal with this without excluding the Hind completely from MP servers.

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I think mission makers can already limit loadouts, or at least remove any weapons that they deem unfair or broken. If people start abusing this most servers will "ban" gun pods. Luckily it's not a big issue as they are not exactly heavy hitters, and rockets are more useful in most situations. 

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3 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

 

Thanks for that. I guess that answers the question "Will it be fixed"..... nope. 

 

In the UH-1 - you'd need 2 others to be present to have them all going at once for that long I suppose - as I've never hit issues with the AI. More noticable with the Hind since the pilot controls the lot. 

 

I wonder what the plan will be for multiplayer servers. I can see trolls bringing down online stations by simply letting loose with these cannons all the time as unlike the Huey - a single player can do this at the airport they're rearming from and rinse and repeat. As much as I hate to think this way - I can see this being a problem. Only takes one or two trolls to be a pain.

 

I'm not hosting a MP server myself but I sure hope that there are ways to deal with this without excluding the Hind completely from MP servers.

Yep, it is a problem. The engine has to calculate for every single bullet fired, so it takes a toll on the system. Also,, I've seen systems way better than mine suffer when there's a gazillion bullets flying around. Heck, even if players are not using gun pods, if you have lots of tanks and other ground units slugging it out, the system will stutter.

 

Regards of what you talked about in multiplayer, I believe Lurker has given a solution, whichi is limit or forbid certain loadouts in a session. 

This is an amazing sim! 'Nuff said!:pilotfly:

 

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Yeah the lag from loooooottts of bullets and their ricochet is neither new, nor a Hind thing. GUV-8700 pods have been on Mi-8 forever now, and can cause the same issue, so does UH-1's miniguns. I can happen to a less degree in some fixed wing aircraft too, I think the main issue is really when the rounds ricochet.

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FPS issues with the pods is a long standing known issue, its a difficult problem to overcome but I remain hopeful. 

 

thanks

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47 minutes ago, BIGNEWY said:

FPS issues with the pods is a long standing known issue, its a difficult problem to overcome but I remain hopeful. 

 

thanks

Thanks for letting us know

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Posted (edited)

That sounds similar to a problem that an early, maybe beta, version of Quake produced on many networks, back in the day, including the one in my workplace, where some clandestine lunchtime carnage might have gone unnoticed, had it not brought the network to its knees.  🙂

 

Apparently, each of the many bullets generated by chain guns caused a network packet to be sent along the peer-to-peer connections, generating a massive amount of network traffic.   I don't know exactly how the developers solved the issue, but i suspect that they somehow combined streams of bullets into a far smaller number of packets.

 

Those were the days.  


Edited by Greyman
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9 hours ago, Dangerzone said:

2:40... So it's not just me and my rig then... using this completely max's out both CPU and GPU as seen in fpsVR and FPS drops dramatically. Can be fun... but a really bad option for multi-player servers as it currently stands. 

 

I know this is just early release - but wondering if there's any plans to correct this (if it's even possible) - or if it will remain as is.

 

The Mi-8 carries the same pods, can only fire one calibre at a time, but it lags big time when the bullets hit the ground too

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That lag is due to DCS being single threaded (not counting sound). Each CPU thread can only handle so much, currently it has the physics for all objects (including bullets and aircraft), the AI and the graphics all on the same thread (or so has been claimed and appears to be true). Ideally things like bullets would be spread across all the cores along with the graphics but DCS is ultimately just a very heavily updated version of Flanker from the 1990's. I can only imagine how messy it is under the hood and updating it to utilize modern CPU's would likely be an absolute nightmare. Needs to happen though, that lag from firing those guns shouldn't be a thing. It's a completely trivial amount of work for modern CPU's if the workload is properly balanced across the CPU. Assuming the Vulkan API conversion happens, proper multi-threading support would be the next logical step. So hopefully we can go completely nuts with a full flight of hinds doing that in the future without any loss of FPS or stuttering.🤠

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16 hours ago, BeastyBaiter said:

That lag is due to DCS being single threaded (not counting sound). Each CPU thread can only handle so much, currently it has the physics for all objects (including bullets and aircraft), the AI and the graphics all on the same thread (or so has been claimed and appears to be true). Ideally things like bullets would be spread across all the cores along with the graphics but DCS is ultimately just a very heavily updated version of Flanker from the 1990's. I can only imagine how messy it is under the hood and updating it to utilize modern CPU's would likely be an absolute nightmare. Needs to happen though, that lag from firing those guns shouldn't be a thing. It's a completely trivial amount of work for modern CPU's if the workload is properly balanced across the CPU. Assuming the Vulkan API conversion happens, proper multi-threading support would be the next logical step. So hopefully we can go completely nuts with a full flight of hinds doing that in the future without any loss of FPS or stuttering.🤠

 

It's not completely trivial, nothing about this simulation or multithreading is. 

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Bullet ballistics are trivial though, if spread across our modern 12-64 thread CPU's instead of just using 1. The calculations themselves are reasonably simple even. But as said, I'm sure DCS is sufficiently messy under the hood that fixing the single thread problem is a monumental task.

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20 minutes ago, BeastyBaiter said:

Bullet ballistics are trivial though, if spread across our modern 12-64 thread CPU's instead of just using 1. The calculations themselves are reasonably simple even. But as said, I'm sure DCS is sufficiently messy under the hood that fixing the single thread problem is a monumental task.

 

You are oversimplifying it. So you spread the calculations over numerous threads. How do you sync them? How do you do this without creating extra overhead, while you already have to calculate hundreds of rounds per minute traveling from point A to point B? No this is not how hyperthreading is done, you can't just offload one little bit of the sim onto a few other cores and be done with it. All of it needs to be properly multithreaded with all of the threads in sync and communicating with each other without extra overhead and without waiting for each other, otherwise you will get an even more jumbled mess that will work less efficiently than a single core solution. 

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Reread what I wrote, you're agreeing with me while trying to argue that I'm wrong.

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Posted (edited)
vor 21 Stunden schrieb Lurker:

 

You are oversimplifying it. So you spread the calculations over numerous threads. How do you sync them? How do you do this without creating extra overhead, while you already have to calculate hundreds of rounds per minute traveling from point A to point B? No this is not how hyperthreading is done, you can't just offload one little bit of the sim onto a few other cores and be done with it. All of it needs to be properly multithreaded with all of the threads in sync and communicating with each other without extra overhead and without waiting for each other, otherwise you will get an even more jumbled mess that will work less efficiently than a single core solution. 

You do not need to calculate each bullet every frame. After firing a bullet, you can calculate the impact point and store all dynamic objets that can potentially affect the bullets trajectory and the timeframe when this might occur. A jet at your rear that is miles away will never get in the way of your bullet. So no need to test it over and over again.

 

This way you only need to recalculate stuff on impact or potential impact. It doesn't really matter how many bullets are currently in the air, only how many are (potentially) impacting and how many are fired in the current frame. For tracers, you just need to evaluate the ballistic function for all bullets that are visible to the camera.

 

Additionally, i wouldn't distribute the bullet calculations over multiple threads. Causes to much overhead for so minor calculations. But I would definately let the ballistic and collision calculations run on a separate core than the rest of the simulation.

 

Also, while multithreading is surely complicated, most stuff can be left quite simple, IF you build your engine around it from scratch. However, transforming a originally single threaded engine to multicore is hell... and that is the problem that ED seems to be facing.


Edited by Wychmaster
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