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Trim/AP operation


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Using “center” option, and with rudder adjust option on, not only does the stick have to be returned to center but the rudders also… saw this in some other thread about the MI-8, probably applies here as well…

 

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Clearly there seems to be a lot of confusion among users on the different trimmer modes in the special options menu screen, as well as the actual method of trimming, i.e. whether to hold the trimmer button down and then move the stick and release the button, or move the stick and then click the trimmer button.
 
Also since most of us are using normal center spring joysticks, but some are using FFB and some are using sticks with no springs and no FFB, we don’t seem to be getting anywhere by comparing our experiences.
 
Could someone from ED step in and explain which of the trimmer modes is intended to be used with each kind of stick, and the proper method of trimming?

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I'm a bit confused about the confusion. I'm using a Virpil T-50 base and stick with no extension*. I'm using the default trim option and it works perfectly, the same as the Huey and Mi-8. Press trim button and it trims to the current stick position.

 

*standard joystick with centre return spring


Edited by Sabre_Ewan
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Default seems to instantly move the stick after you press the button, which for me results in jerky movement. Center mode feels better as there is a delay of a second or so between the button press and the stick centering, making trimming smoother. I can't speak to the FFB option. 

 

I don't think the Hind trim is meant to be held down like the Ka-50. It's like the Huey, you position your stick, press the button, then center your stick.

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The reason some of us are confused is probably related to the observation that the Hind AP is sometimes overcorrecting when the trim button is clicked (behaviour similar to what happens on the Ka-50 when the trimmer is clicked instead of held down). See :

 


Edited by cow_art
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1 hour ago, twgin said:

Using “center” option, and with rudder adjust option on, not only does the stick have to be returned to center but the rudders also… saw this in some other thread about the MI-8, probably applies here as well…

 

 

Also if you have rudder trim disabled?

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This is where some documentation about what the settings mean and how they are supposed to work, would probably quickly answer most of our questions.

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If default in all helo modules is for FFB then I’m sure I’ve been doing something wrong lol. I don’t have a FFB 
Yup, me as well before I got FFB. But it works. You have sort of four options really. Default is like two in one. FFB and standard stick, but you don't want to return to center.
Then you have the return to center option, never used that, and sticks without springs and FFB. I think it should be OR really. OR I'm doing something completely wrong!



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23 minutes ago, GregP said:

This is where some documentation about what the settings mean and how they are supposed to work, would probably quickly answer most of our questions.

 

Exactly.  100%

 

The Mi-24 is proving to be an awesome module and I am loving it.  Trying to learn it without real documentation is ... challenging.

 

In my own experience, 90% of my mishaps are being caused by the trim and fighting the SAS/autopilot and judging by the number of threads and possible bug reports about the controls I don't think I am alone.  When I go down I am usually in direct opposition to a SAS input and I just fight the SAS into the ground.

 

An explanation of the trimmer special options, basic function of the trimmer, and what the SAS channels are trying to do in the different modes would be a Godsend.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Relic said:

Yeah I didn’t realize it at first either.

 

Double check trim types menu in special options. 
 

Default: more like ka50, press and hold until stable flight then release

 

Center option: more like Huey, move stick to stable flight then press trim once and release your physical stick to return to center

 

third option is for FFB sticks I think

 

 

 

For me default does not respond at all to holding the button down, I have to tap it for it to apply properly.

 

Trimming without making the nose bob still seems really hard because it instantly sets it to the new attitude meaning you are giving it a fraction of a second of input before you can move the stick to neutral.

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2 minutes ago, iLOVEwindmills said:

Trimming without making the nose bob still seems really hard because it instantly sets it to the new attitude meaning you are giving it a fraction of a second of input before you can move the stick to neutral.

 

Use the central trimming option in the Mi-24's special page - that way the trim will only be applied after you've returned the stick to center.

 

However even with that option you will (often) still get permanent over-correction likely to the way the AP channels work - that's what this thread originally was about and unfortunately we haven't gotten clarification yet, if this is the way it should work for the Hind or if it should be more akin to the Mi-8, or if it perhaps the Mi-8 might need modifications.

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46 minutes ago, Blackeye said:

 

Use the central trimming option in the Mi-24's special page - that way the trim will only be applied after you've returned the stick to center.

 

However even with that option you will (often) still get permanent over-correction likely to the way the AP channels work - that's what this thread originally was about and unfortunately we haven't gotten clarification yet, if this is the way it should work for the Hind or if it should be more akin to the Mi-8, or if it perhaps the Mi-8 might need modifications.

 

Yeah trying that right now actually, but indeed its still not ideal. Perhaps it would be nice to have an ability to hold the button to give us time to return to center, or perhaps a 0.5 sec 'grace' period where the heli will hold until you can return the controls to neutral.

 

At least, if the bouncing is not a bug.


Edited by iLOVEwindmills
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Here's a fun thing I've noticed: I went into joystick/default.lua and keyboard/default.lua in the Hind input folder and swapped iCommandPlaneTrimOff and iCommandPlaneTrimOn, making pressing the button on my joysting effectively unpressing the button in the cockpit. This makes the autopilot behave exactly as you would expect it should when trimmed (as in not go crazy, toss the helicopter around and end up in a different orientation from the one you trimmed for).

 

I cannot tell if this is a bug or simply quirky soviet engineering. Wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter.

 


Edited by Gronank
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On 6/18/2021 at 8:33 PM, Blackeye said:

Use the central trimming option in the Mi-24's special page - that way the trim will only be applied after you've returned the stick to center.

 

However even with that option you will (often) still get permanent over-correction likely to the way the AP channels work - that's what this thread originally was about and unfortunately we haven't gotten clarification yet

+1

 

seems like bug to me.

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I have found that if I pick the center trimmer option in Special, and then disable all the AP channels, then I can fly and trim just like I do in the Huey. A lot easier to get around without the Autopilot fighting everything. Not sure what Default is meant to do, but it just never seemed to be trimming pitch at all? 

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On 6/18/2021 at 2:25 PM, iLOVEwindmills said:

 

For me default does not respond at all to holding the button down, I have to tap it for it to apply properly.

 

Trimming without making the nose bob still seems really hard because it instantly sets it to the new attitude meaning you are giving it a fraction of a second of input before you can move the stick to neutral.

Weird. I'm using default trim option, with a regular stick with springs/cams. I hold the trim down and release when I achieve stable flight. Double click trim button resets the trim (Or you can bind seprately the trim reset).

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3 hours ago, backspace340 said:

I have found that if I pick the center trimmer option in Special, and then disable all the AP channels, then I can fly and trim just like I do in the Huey. A lot easier to get around without the Autopilot fighting everything. Not sure what Default is meant to do, but it just never seemed to be trimming pitch at all? 

 

Default option allows 0.5 seconds for you to return the stick to center.

 

As far as trimming im experimenting with different methods, yes similar trimming method to the KA-50 seems to work ok.

One thing very different from the KA-50 is the yaw channel.    In the Hind, if you are in stable flight and want to turn 90 degrees you don't need to trim at all where that would never work in the Shark.   

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14 hours ago, Gronank said:

Here's a fun thing I've noticed: I went into joystick/default.lua and keyboard/default.lua in the Hind input folder and swapped iCommandPlaneTrimOff and iCommandPlaneTrimOn, making pressing the button on my joysting effectively unpressing the button in the cockpit. This makes the autopilot behave exactly as you would expect it should when trimmed (as in not go crazy, toss the helicopter around and end up in a different orientation from the one you trimmed for).

 

I cannot tell if this is a bug or simply quirky soviet engineering. Wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter.

 

 

Now that’s interesting!

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Gronank said:

Here's a fun thing I've noticed: I went into joystick/default.lua and keyboard/default.lua in the Hind input folder and swapped iCommandPlaneTrimOff and iCommandPlaneTrimOn, making pressing the button on my joysting effectively unpressing the button in the cockpit. This makes the autopilot behave exactly as you would expect it should when trimmed (as in not go crazy, toss the helicopter around and end up in a different orientation from the one you trimmed for).

 

I cannot tell if this is a bug or simply quirky soviet engineering. Wouldn't be surprised if it was the latter.

 

 

Well what you are doing is basically disabling the AP channels for 99% of the flight, by keeping the trimmer pressed and only shortly release (key down) when you want a new position. It's not really surprising that the AP won't adjust your flight then, but you also won't get the benefits of having the AP channels in the first place.

 

A better option to achieve this is to use the trimmer like you would in the Ka-50, i.e. press the trimmer whenever you move the stick and release once you're done - pretty much the same result just with the AP actually helping you during the flight.

 


Edited by Blackeye
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1 hour ago, Blackeye said:

 

 

Well what you are doing is basically disabling the AP channels for 99% of the flight, by keeping the trimmer pressed and only shortly release (key down) when you want a new position. It's not really surprising that the AP won't adjust your flight then, but you also won't get the benefits of having the AP channels in the first place.

 

A better option to achieve this is to use the trimmer like you would in the Ka-50, i.e. press the trimmer whenever you move the stick and release once you're done - pretty much the same result just with the AP actually helping you during the flight.

 

 

The autopilot is definitely doing something with the trim button held, but I think it's mostly stability assist. Given the alternatives are stable but uncontrollable with the autopilot or controllable but unstable with the autopilot turned off, I think trim pressed all the time provides the best tradeoff.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Gronank said:

The autopilot is definitely doing something with the trim button held, but I think it's mostly stability assist. Given the alternatives are stable but uncontrollable with the autopilot or controllable but unstable with the autopilot turned off, I think trim pressed all the time provides the best tradeoff.

 

It might do some stabilization but it won't attempt to hold bank or pitch like it would in normal operation. If you insist on never holding the button down for more that a split second then yes that weird button inversion configuration is probably the alternative that might give you some stabilization without the AP commanding extra motion on trim release.

 

However if you're okay with holding the trim button down for a few seconds while moving the stick (like in the Ka-50) you get stabilized flight with full AP support and no jump after trim release.

 

 

3 hours ago, Moriarty said:

If the trim button disables the AP channels, and if that’s as intended, then does the 4-way hat trimmer also disable the AP channels when it’s pressed?

 

Not as far as I can tell - it'll simply move the AP channel offset.

 

As to how it is supposed to work or how it is operated in real life: I have no idea and getting that clarified was the purpose of this thread.

Unfortunately ED has not commented how it is supposed to work yet.


Edited by Blackeye
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30 minutes ago, Blackeye said:

As to how it is supposed to work or how it is operated in real life: I have no idea and getting that clarified was the purpose of this thread.

Unfortunately ED has not commented how it is supposed to work yet.

 

The pilot’s manual doesn’t get too specific about it, as best I can tell. It says use a series of rapid, short presses (for example) in the transition from hover to forward flight. Make of that what you will, but my intuition tells me it doesn’t matter if the trimmer is used in a press-hold-adjust-release or adjust-press-release. (There’s a vid of a *flying* Mi-8 in which the pilot is constantly clicking that button.) The one person I know who’s flown a Hind was an Apache pilot who flew it once 20+ years ago. 🤷‍♂️ As for ED, the people or person who *really* knows how it’s supposed to work probably doesn’t read the English language forum much. It’s notoriously difficult to communicate with coders who are convinced that pilots only notice the “small details” of how their aircraft works, too. So the bottom line is we must adjust to how the thing works in DCS at any given time as opposed to losing sleep over how someone believes it should work or how it actually works in the wild. It’ll be this way until someone who writes code, or directs the people who write code, changes their mind.


Edited by Moriarty
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  • NineLine changed the title to Trim/AP operation

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