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HSD Threat Rings change colour from yellow to red when the aircraft enter inside the cyrcle.


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3 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

 

I've sent the link to BIGNEWY for him to have a look at, though this document took me 5 seconds to find after a quick google for "F-16 HSD threat rings".

 

In the document there is a table for all of the symbols displayed on the HSD, and there are 2 for the threat rings - one is the yellow circle and yellow identifiers, the other is a red circle with red identifiers and is marked "Pre-Planned Threat Rings w/ ownship inside lethal range"

Yep, those manuals have been going around for years. 

There’s lots of stuff in there, easy to reference, that’s currently incorrect in our Viper. 


Edited by AvroLanc
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4 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

Pretty sure it's a real feature, the circle and the identifier inside go red (I think).

 

They also do it in the other sim too.

 

I've found a pilots handbook online for the F-16A/B MLU. It confirms that threat rings, and their identifier turn red when your inside the ring.

 

I'd be very surprised if the F-16CM doesn't do the same thing, given that the F-16A MLU is essentially an upgrade to F-16CM/DM CCIP standard for the F-16A/B, and CCIP is kinda like the MLU, but for the F-16C.  

 

But I want to first check with mods to make sure I'm not going to breach 1.16 by positing it.

 

 

Nice, didn't know that one.

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10 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

I've sent the link to BIGNEWY for him to have a look at, though this document took me 5 seconds to find after a quick google for "F-16 HSD threat rings".

 

In the document there is a table for all of the symbols displayed on the HSD, and there are 2 for the threat rings - one is the yellow circle and yellow identifiers, the other is a red circle with red identifiers and is marked "Pre-Planned Threat Rings w/ ownship inside lethal range"

This should provide ample evidence for y’all at ED

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • ED Team

Hi all, 

 

we still have no clear evidence for this, what was presented before was for the MLU and not the US F-16

 

thanks

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3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

what was presented before was for the MLU and not the US F-16

The DCS F-16 is CCIP version, which is avionics tape M4.2 if im not mistaken. Those publicly available MLU tape M1 to M3 manuals should apply, unless explicitely overriden by later tapes' manuals.


Edited by dorianR666

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  • ED Team

I checked with the team, we would need more specific information to change our current modelling. 

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8 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

I checked with the team, we would need more specific information to change our current modelling. 

Do you guys have evidence saying that the current implementation is correct? If you dont, than an MLU manual is better evidence than guessing.

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3 hours ago, llOPPOTATOll said:

 If you dont, than an MLU manual is better evidence than guessing.

 

Sorry no, this is not how it works, the most important thing we are trying to prevent is a mishmash of system and avionics from other F-16's 

 

thanks

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8 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

Sorry no, this is not how it works, the most important thing we are trying to prevent is a mishmash of system and avionics from other F-16's 

 

thanks

 

10 hours ago, llOPPOTATOll said:

Do you guys have evidence saying that the current implementation is correct? If you dont, than an MLU manual is better evidence than guessing.

 

If you have evidence that US F-16CM HSD threat circles absolutely positively remain yellow when inside the lethal range, then OK we'll deal with it. Where did you get the source for yellow circles in the first place?

 

If you indeed do not have this in writing, then surely the MLU manuals represent a better/additional source that make perfect sense to apply. What am I missing here?

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10 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

 

Sorry no, this is not how it works, the most important thing we are trying to prevent is a mishmash of system and avionics from other F-16's 

 

thanks


Sorry, I don’t want to be adversarial, but I’m a little bit surprised here. Generally speaking if I do research on a certain subject as a historian and I‘m pointed at facts that could amend my previous information then I have to take these facts and actively try my best to verify or falsify them. What I can’t do is dismiss them out of hand if I want to lay claims to the historical correctness of my work. Which is what you seem to do if you say „this is not how it works“.
 

But tbh the most important thing for you is selling your product since ED is a company not academia, so I think it would be nice to err on the side of usability if in doubt.


Edited by Archduke
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Guys to play devils advocate, this is a pretty simple functionality that any operator of the aircraft of the appropriate avionics generation would be fully aware of. As ED have access to SME's that have operated this aircraft block I would err on the side of saying they are probably happy with this current system depiction, unless as Bignewy says there is any clear evidence to the contrary. (agreeing with ED - I know crazy right lol).

I have seen plenty of Vipers will all sorts of variations in MFD colour schemes etc. so it is nice ED are sticking to one particular avionics gen so closely.

 

As per Rule 1.16 (which I am quite familiar with lol) ED/we can't post any 'specific' information about the appropriate Viper systems, but ED don't need to if they have a dude that flew it saying 'yep that's how it works' - which is more than adequate.

Just thoughts from a guy who worked with the development of an Air Force simulator as the aircraft systems SME and advised on the correct system interaction/functionality etc - when something wasn't right, the programmers I was working with didn't say 'prove it' they said 'thank you, so how does it really work?' lol. So trust that ED have the right SME's on the job that say 'system A works like this', or 'This needs changing'.

 

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Thanks for pointing this out. As I said, I don’t want to be adversarial. I’m just surprised, since indeed I‘d have thought that ED had definite documentation regarding such functionality and BNs reply sounded like „We don’t know, give us more information.“

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Interesting - I don't think BN's reply sounded like "We don't know' at all.

 

I get the impression it is more "The HSD display is currently modelled as per what we consider as reliable information for the version we are portraying - if you have 2,000 hours flying this specific model F-16 and are used to seeing red HSD rings, or are looking at the exact same model avionics systems/operating manual showing red rings, we would like to know and will refer the info to our own SME for consideration." - maybe it's just me 😁.

 

Not saying it is impossible - but the MFD displays changed all over the shop with different blocks/upgrades/versions etc.

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3 hours ago, VampireNZ said:

but ED don't need to if they have a dude that flew it saying 'yep that's how it works' - which is more than adequate.

 

SMEs aren't infallible. Recently a 3rd party dev looked at changing something due to SME feedback and the SME was dead wrong. The community had to provide proof to get it corrected. Every SME's personal experience in service is slightly different, and years after flying a certain airframe their memory fades or gets muddled with memories of other aircraft or other Blocks of the same aircraft.


Edited by Nealius
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14 minutes ago, Nealius said:

 

SMEs aren't infallible. Recently a 3rd party dev looked at changing something due to SME feedback and the SME was dead wrong. The community had to provide proof to get it corrected. Every SME's personal experience in service is slightly different, and years after flying a certain airframe their memory fades or gets muddled with memories of other aircraft or other Blocks of the same aircraft.

 

 

All good man - I am not trying to start an argument here. As I said these are just views from an actual SME with 1,600 hours over 6 years on an airframe, that worked with a simulation team in developing a full motion FAA Level 2 FTD training sim (including every single malfunction possible to every aircraft system - so yea I was never perfect lol, but I did know what colour the displays were).  There are also actual SME's, and self-proclaimed SME's....there can be a difference.

 

Bottom line yes you are correct - hence BN's response - 'we would need more specific information to change our current modelling'. You got it, they will listen, simple really.

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8 hours ago, VampireNZ said:

Interesting - I don't think BN's reply sounded like "We don't know' at all.

 

I get the impression it is more "The HSD display is currently modelled as per what we consider as reliable information for the version we are portraying - if you have 2,000 hours flying this specific model F-16 and are used to seeing red HSD rings, or are looking at the exact same model avionics systems/operating manual showing red rings, we would like to know and will refer the info to our own SME for consideration." - maybe it's just me 😁.

 

Not saying it is impossible - but the MFD displays changed all over the shop with different blocks/upgrades/versions etc.


Yep, I guess that’s the difference between an academic „workstyle“ (don’t know a better word) and what ED is doing. In academia I‘d expect active research as soon as I get contradicting information. But I understand that this may be quite unworkable in this case.

 

 It’s just that it seems almost a catch-22, because ED is better positioned to get correct information than we are and additionally they (necessarily) enforce rule 1.16 strictly. From an academic viewpoint rule 1.16 is close to sacrilege. 😄

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17 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

 

 

If you have evidence that US F-16CM HSD threat circles absolutely positively remain yellow when inside the lethal range, then OK we'll deal with it. Where did you get the source for yellow circles in the first place?

 

If you indeed do not have this in writing, then surely the MLU manuals represent a better/additional source that make perfect sense to apply. What am I missing here?

 

They do not have proof that the rings stay yellow, but to make them turn red it required more work which ED are not easily willing to put in, unless basically being put to shame by "clear evidence" which, basically, doesn't exist by the standards required by ED.  

 

As I've asked before in similar disputes with ED, can ED please provide clear evidence that the yellow rings indeed do not turn red? If you guys are so sure, then surely you have the documents to prove this no? It would be simple enough to show us where you got this from and put this whole thing to rest.

 

 

Thanks


Edited by bkthunder
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On 7/14/2021 at 2:34 PM, VampireNZ said:

Guys to play devils advocate, this is a pretty simple functionality that any operator of the aircraft of the appropriate avionics generation would be fully aware of. As ED have access to SME's that have operated this aircraft block I would err on the side of saying they are probably happy with this current system depiction, unless as Bignewy says there is any clear evidence to the contrary. (agreeing with ED - I know crazy right lol).

I have seen plenty of Vipers will all sorts of variations in MFD colour schemes etc. so it is nice ED are sticking to one particular avionics gen so closely.

 

As per Rule 1.16 (which I am quite familiar with lol) ED/we can't post any 'specific' information about the appropriate Viper systems, but ED don't need to if they have a dude that flew it saying 'yep that's how it works' - which is more than adequate.

Just thoughts from a guy who worked with the development of an Air Force simulator as the aircraft systems SME and advised on the correct system interaction/functionality etc - when something wasn't right, the programmers I was working with didn't say 'prove it' they said 'thank you, so how does it really work?' lol. So trust that ED have the right SME's on the job that say 'system A works like this', or 'This needs changing'.

 

 

There have been multiple instances where EDs "SMEs" ended up being wrong, with various modules. This is why people do not trust necessarily that everything is perfect in accordance with EDs current "SMEs" opinions/feedback. And would rather seek documentation proof.


Edited by Wing
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On 7/14/2021 at 7:13 PM, AvroLanc said:

 

 

If you have evidence that US F-16CM HSD threat circles absolutely positively remain yellow when inside the lethal range, then OK we'll deal with it. Where did you get the source for yellow circles in the first place?

 

If you indeed do not have this in writing, then surely the MLU manuals represent a better/additional source that make perfect sense to apply. What am I missing here?

 

You didn't miss anything.

 

Older manual applies as evidence, until a newer information explains the old information to be incorrect by either stating it directly or explaining the new behavior on the same thing.

 

If someone can provide example 2-3 older manuals, and each of them states feature X that generates the logic in the design/system, then it should be used as it is only evidence there is. And "no evidence" can't be used as evidence to state otherwise without circumstances changing in the whole subject that would invalidate the whole previous documentation (example all previous ones are for monochrome displays and new one simulated is colored one), and even then if limited newer manual doesn't say anything about it, then newer doesn't apply as evidence because it doesn't mention anything about changes or subject.

 

If someone doesn't have evidence for any direction, then there is nothing else than educated guesses based to hypothesis and logic. And it is illogical that multiple previous versions feature would have been removed without any other changes to whole topic.

In this case: All other colors, symbols, drawings etc are maintained but one threat symbol that is to save pilot life and symbolize high risk situation is removed and rendered in a normal condition manner where pilot doesn't get a visual indicator of the dangerous situation.

 

  

51 minutes ago, Wing said:

There have been multiple instances where EDs "SMEs" ended up being wrong, with various modules. This is why people do not trust necessarily that everything is perfect in accordance with EDs current "SMEs" opinions/feedback. And would rather seek documentation proof.

 

SME's are nothin more than a Party Testimonies. If they are only evidence there is, then it is required to have multiple sources (3-4) where each source is confirming the behavior with proper questioning ("Please explain what colors different MFCD symbols has" vs "Are the threat rings colored with some color like yellow?").

 

Value of evidence.jpg


Edited by Fri13
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