correct as-is Throttle(rotational on collective) strangely connected to the collective

[iFoxRomeo]

Foreword: This is exactly the same behaviour as in the Mi-8...

This is not a controls setup problem.

 

When the throttle levers(left of the collective) are in the middle position, the rotational throttle on the collective can be moved by an axis command, and is not moved unintentionally by a different axis command.

 

When the throttle levers are set to the low/idle position, the rotational throttle can't be adjusted by an axis command anymore, when the collective is fully down. The rotor rpm drops, but if the collective is increased, the engines start to increase Ng again, despite being set to idle. The rotational throttle doesn't rotate visually, but it changes its value. If you increase the collective in this configuration to, say half, you can hear the engines spool up. If you now put the rotational throttle axis to idle, the engines spool down again. But if you increase collective a bit more, the engines spool up again. Slight movement of the rotational throttle around the low position reminds the engines again, that they are actually set to idle and they spool down again.

When the collective reaches full up position, the rotational throttle can again be set by the axis command. If moved back down the throttle rotates back to idle, even if not commanded to do so.

 

In this setup(both throttle levers left of the collective fully down/idle) it acts as if the virtual pilot increases throttle simultaneously with the collective increase and reduces throttle with collective decrease.

That should not happen. One Engine Inoperative or autorotation training is severely hampered by this throttle behaviour, as you have to shut the engine(s) down if you don't want them to interfere with the procedure.

 

Fox

hind_throttle.trk

[MAXsenna]

Foreword: This is exactly the same behaviour as in the Mi-8...
This is not a controls setup problem.
 
When the throttle levers(left of the collective) are in the middle position, the rotational throttle on the collective can be moved by an axis command, and is not moved unintentionally by a different axis command.
 
When the throttle levers are set to the low/idle position, the rotational throttle can't be adjusted by an axis command anymore, when the collective is fully down. The rotor rpm drops, but if the collective is increased, the engines start to increase Ng again, despite being set to idle. The rotational throttle doesn't rotate visually, but it changes its value. If you increase the collective in this configuration to, say half, you can hear the engines spool up. If you now put the rotational throttle axis to idle, the engines spool down again. But if you increase collective a bit more, the engines spool up again. Slight movement of the rotational throttle around the low position reminds the engines again, that they are actually set to idle and they spool down again.
When the collective reaches full up position, the rotational throttle can again be set by the axis command. If moved back down the throttle rotates back to idle, even if not commanded to do so.
 
In this setup(both throttle levers left of the collective fully down/idle) it acts as if the virtual pilot increases throttle simultaneously with the collective increase and reduces throttle with collective decrease.
That should not happen. One Engine Inoperative or autorotation training is severely hampered by this throttle behaviour, as you have to shut the engine(s) down if you don't want them to interfere with the procedure.
 
Fox
hind_throttle.trk

You are mixing things. Don't touch the levers. Only use the twist on the collective. It's correct as is.

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[iFoxRomeo]

3 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

You are mixing things. Don't touch the levers. Only use the twist on the collective. It's correct as is.

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I don't think this is the place for jokes

[MAXsenna]

I don't think this is the place for jokes

Sorry, I think I totally misread what you wrote.

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[Ramsay]

1 hour ago, iFoxRomeo said:

In this setup(both throttle levers left of the collective fully down/idle) it acts as if the virtual pilot increases throttle simultaneously with the collective increase and reduces throttle with collective decrease.

Is this not perhaps the result of a collective correlator increasing/decreasing engine RPM ?

[iFoxRomeo]

1 minute ago, Ramsay said:

Is this not perhaps the result of a collective correlator increasing/decreasing engine RPM ?

There is a little Ng increase at the very end of the collective full up travel range that can't be reduced by the movement of the rotational throttle. But that is not the problem.

At full collective up, throttle levers full down, the rotational throttle can be rotated. But when the collective is then reduced to full down, the rotational throttle can't be rotated anymore. Now set rotational throttle to minimum position and increase the collective again, the rotational throttle gets increased, but it is not visible. Only the reaction can be seen that the Ng rises. When you now move(by a hotas axis) the rotational throttle a tiny bit, its value is send to the engines and the Ng decreases.

Check the track.

[MAXsenna]

Have you tried to turn on the controls indicator? It will show you that the condition levers, (that's what their called in the Hip manual, but throttle levers in control settings. I have no clue to what is correct), will reduce the "axis" of the twist throttle. Purple bar.
From page 51 in the Hip manual, they are describing use of these as far as I can tell. Maybe@AlphaOneSix can shed some light?

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[iFoxRomeo]

40 minutes ago, MAXsenna said:

Have you tried to turn on the controls indicator?

Of course. Have you checked the track I attached to the report?

 

 

Edited June 20, 2021 by iFoxRomeo

[AlphaOneSix]

I can try to look at the track later, as I don't have access to my computer right now, but the situation you describe in the original post sounds like correct behavior.

 

The engine separate throttle levers, the twist throttle on the collective, and the collective itself are all connected to the N1 control lever on the engines. Well, the separate throttle levers only move the N1 control lever on one engine at a time, while the collective and twist throttle move the N1 control levers on both engines simultaneously. The N1 control levers on each engine can only move so far. With the collective full down, and the throttle full left, the N1 control levers are at their minimum, so moving an ECL down will mechanically require the twist throttle to move clockwise, resulting in a rise in the N1 of the opposite engine.

 

Any movement of the ECL, twist throttle, or collective will move the N1 control lever on the engines, thereby changing the N1 of the engine.

 

In order to perform OEI training, you must place the "failed" engine ECL in the lower detent. It is correct that adjustments of the collective will necessarily adjust the N1 of the "failed" engine, since the collective is still moving the N1 control lever on both engines. For duel engine failure training, the ECLs should be left in their center detents, and the twist throttle should be turned counter-clockwise to the minimum. The engines will reduce power to the minimum considering that the collective is again still moving the N1 control rod on the engines, resulting in higher than idle N1 RPM.

[Yo-Yo]

These interconnected controls, as AlphaOneSix mentioned, are gathered at the same N1 lever, so, the behavior you see is a result of this lever hard limits.
As intented.

[iFoxRomeo]

@AlphaOneSix

Thanks for your response.

The problem with the track is that you see the action/movement of the throttle, but you don't know what was intended or actually done by me. But nonetheless would be interesting to read your feedback. 

 

2 minutes ago, Yo-Yo said:

These interconnected controls, as AlphaOneSix mentioned, are gathered at the same N1 lever, so, the behavior you see is a result of this lever hard limits.
As intented.

Okay. Got that. As I only know western Helicopters, this behaviour was strange to me. E.g. an engine set to idle remains at idle regardless of the position of the collective and/or Nr.

 

With both ECLs at low position and collective fully down the throttle can't be rotated. When the collective is then completely pulled up, the throttle can then be rotated again.

So the ECLs can lock the throttle?! But only at the collective low position.

 

During normal operation these things don't appear to the normal Simpilot. But if you want to train OEIs or ARs it is not ideal, as the idling engine(s) feeds power to the rotor and thus gives the wrong impression of the available power/energy in the rotorsystem especially during the last phase of the approach. 

 

Fox

[iFoxRomeo]

Correct as is?

@AlphaOneSix @Yo-Yo

 

Perhaps you have 2,5minutes for a short demonstration of my problem with the throttle

 

 

 

Fox

[iFoxRomeo]

On 6/21/2021 at 1:42 AM, AlphaOneSix said:

With the collective full down, and the throttle full left, the N1 control levers are at their minimum, so moving an ECL down will mechanically require the twist throttle to move clockwise, resulting in a rise in the N1 of the opposite engine.

And what does happen with both ECLs down?

[AlphaOneSix]

Correct as-is. I'm actually impressed at the level of detail in-game here. Kudos on them for getting this right!

3 hours ago, iFoxRomeo said:

And what does happen with both ECLs down?

 

Not physically possible. In order to move both ECLs full down, and have the collective full down, the twist throttle has to open. All three of these things connect to the throttle on the engines.

 

I won't be at work for another couple of weeks, but I'm sorely tempted to make a video explaining the throttles.

[MAXsenna]

Correct as-is. I'm actually impressed at the level of detail in-game here. Kudos on them for getting this right!
 
Not physically possible. In order to move both ECLs full down, and have the collective full down, the twist throttle has to open. All three of these things connect to the throttle on the engines.
 
I won't be at work for another couple of weeks, but I'm sorely tempted to make a video explaining the throttles.

That would be awesome!

Quick question though. Is the animation in the Hip correct, but "lacking" in the Hind? (At a loss for better words).
I just checked the behaviour in both, and in the Hip, the twist throttle will turn clockwise when using the levers, but not in the Hind. The Hind doesn't have the purple indicator in the controls indicator too.
Cheers!

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[AlphaOneSix]

Well if the ECLs are full down and the collective is full down, the twist throttle will be stuck full right...unable to twist left (because the throttle lever on the engine will be against the minimum throttle stop). If you bring the ECLs full up, and open the twist throttle full right...as you lift the collective, the twist throttle will rotate left on it's own, because the throttle lever on the engine will be against the full throttle stop. Leaving the ECLs in the middle is the only way to allow full travel of both the twist throttle as well as the collective.

[iFoxRomeo]

2 hours ago, AlphaOneSix said:

Correct as-is. I'm actually impressed at the level of detail in-game here. Kudos on them for getting this right!

 

Not physically possible. In order to move both ECLs full down, and have the collective full down, the twist throttle has to open. All three of these things connect to the throttle on the engines.

 

I won't be at work for another couple of weeks, but I'm sorely tempted to make a video explaining the throttles.

Thank you for taking the time.

 

Well, my "western helicopter philosophy primed brain" still can't find an explanation why one would construct engine controls this way, it surely doesn't mean it is wrong or incorrect. It's just different.

 

 

Fox

[AlphaOneSix]

Well, it's not the engine...the engine just has the one throttle lever. It's all in the flight controls. Sometimes you want to adjust an engine's throttle separately from the other engine. For that, you use the ECLs. Most of the time, you are going to adjust the throttle for both simultaneously, so it's easier to just have one control for that.

[MAXsenna]

Well if the ECLs are full down and the collective is full down, the twist throttle will be stuck full right...unable to twist left (because the throttle lever on the engine will be against the minimum throttle stop). If you bring the ECLs full up, and open the twist throttle full right...as you lift the collective, the twist throttle will rotate left on it's own, because the throttle lever on the engine will be against the full throttle stop. Leaving the ECLs in the middle is the only way to allow full travel of both the twist throttle as well as the collective.

Thanks!

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