Question about the optical sight stabilisation

[BlackPixxel]

It appears that the optical sight is using gyros, but those don't seem to do much?

 

I was expecting the sight to be stabilized in its attitude, so that pitch or yaw rotations of the helicopter will not transfer onto the sight's line of .. sight.

 

But right now it seems that the sight operator has to counter the rotations of the helicopter by himself.

 

What are those gyros used for then?

 

This website here revers to the line of sight as gyro stabilized. It also says that after firing the helicopter can turn away up to 60° while guiding the missile. With a non-stabilized sight like we have right now this seems impossible to do.

http://www.nva-flieger.de/index.php/technik/bew/palr-falanga.html

Edited June 19, 2021 by BlackPixxel

[Whisper]

Not sure the optical sight follow the chopper , I think it's more about the stabilization not being perfect

[RealDCSpilot]

Yeah, it doesn't have ground stabilisation. Those gyros are already working as much as they can. The rest is pilot's and operator's work for precision ATGM strikes.

[BlackPixxel]

Of course there is no ground stabilization. But I wonder why there is no attitude stabilisation. I expected the sight to point more or less in the same direction independend of the helicopter movement.

[Whisper]

I really didn't feel it as jerky as you make it when co-piloting for a friend... Sure there is absolutely zero stabilization at work?

[BlackPixxel]

I have not tried it yet, it was just something I noticed from the videos

 

I will give it a try!

[BlackPixxel]

It appears to be an issue caused by multicrew in multiplayer, as a result of the latency between both clients and the way the multicrew is implemented.

 

So the best practice is to let the heli fly straight without touching controls when the gunner is guiding the Shturm.

[Fri13]

The sight in DCS does shake a lot by smallest helicopter movements. It wanders around and you are constantly fighting to keep it on target.

 

The +/-60 degree turning capability is a joke, as to get good success you need to fly straight on target. 

 

Material that I have seen from sight shows it is very steady, and only the lack of ground stabilization is the challenge for PC controls but not to real control grip. As when helicopter turns , you need from turn control to opposite direction as much as the ground deviation is. So if moving from attack line 50 km/h laterally to left, you need to turn controller to right as much that sight keep such turn rate that matches the 50 km/h caused rate.  Closer you get, then relative rate increases and you need to compensate for it by turning further right.

 

But now the sight is not stabilized for the roll, yaw and pitch but will yank around even from smoothest and smallest changes.

 

 

 

 

[dorianR666]

On 6/19/2021 at 11:03 AM, BlackPixxel said:

I was expecting the sight to be stabilized in its attitude

same, it seems to me the gyros only stabilize against random shaking noise of the heli right now.

[Fri13]

On 6/19/2021 at 12:03 PM, BlackPixxel said:

 

This website here revers to the line of sight as gyro stabilized. It also says that after firing the helicopter can turn away up to 60° while guiding the missile. With a non-stabilized sight like we have right now this seems impossible to do.

http://www.nva-flieger.de/index.php/technik/bew/palr-falanga.html

 

 

Quote

Vergrößerungsfaktor der Optik: umschaltba zwischen 3.3 und 10

Sichtfeldwinkel des Steuergerätes: 22° (Vergrößerungsfaktor 3.3) bzw. 7° (Vergrößerungsfaktor 10)

Sichtfeldwinkel des Peilkanals:

Auffassen: 18°

Begleiten: 3°

 

 

So missile guidance signal is first given in 18° after launch to capture it, and then switched to 3°. Compared to optics given 22/7° FOV it is required to have target well inside it.

 

Quote

 

Begleiten bei geschlossener Blende: 3'...12'

Schwenkwinkel der kreiselstabilisierten Visierlinie bezüglich der Hubschrauberlängsachse:

horizontal: ±60°

nach oben: 15°

nach unten: 20°

 

 

The sight gimbal limits are +/- 60° in azimuth and +15/-20° in vertical.

 

And then the key information:

 

Quote

 

maximale Winkelgeschwindigkeit der Visierlinie im Lenkprozess: 43 Tausendstel/Sekunde (2.5°/s)

Schnellrichtgeschwindigkeit der Visierlinie:

horizontal: 20°/s

vertikal: 10°/s

 

 

Maximal angular velocity is 2.5° in a second, and control speed 20° in a second horizontally and 10° in vertical.

 

So operator can scan whole 120° horizontal view in 6 seconds, and vertical in 3.5 seconds.

 

This means that we have 1:2 ratio for the sight movement. Has anyone noticed such? Maybe it needs to be added with the controller axis saturation so Y is 100% and X is 50%

 

And angular velocity of 2.5°/s should be the stabilization capability. That is not much for Petrovich that waves controllers far faster than that. But considering it, 50 degree turn by pilot should then be performed at over 20 seconds to have stabilization horizontally...

 

The missile has already impacted at 5000 meters in that time.

 

2.5°/s rate is very tiny. I am custom to T-72 stabilization as it was best of its kind until Leopard 2 was taken in service (1972 vs 1979) and it had little better stabilization for the normal action (but amazing overall, as can be seen in various videos of champagne glass on its cannon). The T-72 gun is capable for 6 degrees per second rate, that is more than enough for defensive and offensive combat speeds and operations.

 

So that is 2.4x better than Mi-24 has, that is floating in air and under fast sudden moves for maneuvers.

2.5°/s sounds low, but it should be enough for Mi-24 to maintain stable sight in normal combat flight.

[BlackPixxel]

The 2.5 °/s is only when you are guiding ATGM, not related to stabilization capability.

 

Propably so that you do not move so fast that the missile leaves the FOV of the thermal tracker, and to allow for a smooth flight of the missile

[Fri13]

5 minutes ago, BlackPixxel said:

The 2.5 °/s is only when you are guiding ATGM, not related to stabilization capability.

 

Propably so that you do not move so fast that the missile leaves the FOV of the thermal tracker, and to allow for a smooth flight of the missile

Are you sure? I would take the stabilization effectiveness, but it is always extra to operator aiming skills 

 

The page talks about how at long range you can accidentally put missile on ground by doing too fast aiming down, and missile reacts to it quickly.

[BlackPixxel]

"maximale Winkelgeschwindigkeit der Visierlinie im Lenkprozess" means the maximum angular speed of the line of sight in the process of guiding a missile.

[Blackeye]

Seems to have more stabilization in this video at least horizontally (5:44 turning away from target)

 

 

Edited June 24, 2021 by Blackeye

[YoYo]

2 minutes ago, Blackeye said:

Seems to have more stabilization in this video at least horizontally.

 

Yes looks better, but I think stabilization in the sight is ok but OUR Petrovich drunk too much vodka before the flight! 

 

[Avimimus]

Quick question: What is the command to order the AI operator to shut down the sight? If I give an order to stop targeting anything it is still left on and my manoeuvres damage the system!

[Mpkevin]

15 minutes ago, Avimimus said:

Quick question: What is the command to order the AI operator to shut down the sight? If I give an order to stop targeting anything it is still left on and my manoeuvres damage the system!

Press the down key default “s” key one time. The Ai will store the sight.

[YoYo]

3 hours ago, Avimimus said:

Quick question: What is the command to order the AI operator to shut down the sight? If I give an order to stop targeting anything it is still left on and my manoeuvres damage the system!

Its OBSERV position, you can turn off the switch in the front seat (right, back panel). No key here but you can add for example the „O” key, its free.

[Fri13]

On 6/24/2021 at 7:04 PM, BlackPixxel said:

"maximale Winkelgeschwindigkeit der Visierlinie im Lenkprozess" means the maximum angular speed of the line of sight in the process of guiding a missile.

 

For me it says "in steering process", that I took as when pilot is steering helicopter.

 

[BlackPixxel]

Nah, in German you don't call it "lenken" when you fly an aircraft. But a guided missile is a "Lenkflugkörper", "lenken" = guiding.