Yaw SAS

[nazradu]

10 minutes ago, Rongor said:

unfortunately it doesn't work. Try turning while transitioning to lower speeds, it will kill you.

Please be a bit more precice here. You have a lot of options to get killed in chopper. What exactly did you do?

[Rongor]

Just now, nazradu said:

Please be a bit more precice here. You have a lot of options to get killed in chopper. What exactly did you do?

you mentioned double tapping trim for adjusting the new yaw value. What you are doing with this is a trim reset. Resetting your trim to center-neutral is not only abandoning your current perfect roll/pitch attitude, you also don't want that happen when hovering near the ground.

Try it out while in slow speeds near the ground, especially while descending. Your yaw channel has a hard time to understand what you intend to do. In some cases, the yaw channel will take away enough authority to leave you with insufficient anti-torque. You don't want that seconds before landing.

The yaw channel in its current state seems to work for running landings, not so much for air taxi and settling down vertically.

[jojo]

23 minutes ago, nazradu said:

Trimmer seems to affect only pitch and roll or in other words the position of the virtual stick. I think it realy helps to have yaw AP on as long as you stick to what I said in the video. The yaw AP will manage the torque for you and that makes take off and landing super easy as long as you go easy on the collective. As mentioned by others when you want to change roll or pitch develop the habit to push and hold the trimmer get desired roll and pitch with the cyclic and when you reached the desired attitude release the trimmer and center the your physical stick. But remember! When ever you want to change your heading with yaw AP on, do it with your pedals and only assist it with cyclic. Watch the video. It's all explained in 7 minutes

 

You can select in OPTIONS/ SPECIAL/ Mi-24P an option to trim the rudder too

 

It’s true that it’s smoother if you move the control with trim button depressed and release it when the controls are where you want.

Then return slowly the controls to neutral and the helicopter will remain steady.

 

It requires a little bit of practice to get it right, and even more to get it right each time

[ojanim]

32 minutes ago, nazradu said:

Trimmer seems to affect only pitch and roll or in other words the position of the virtual stick. I think it realy helps to have yaw AP on as long as you stick to what I said in the video. The yaw AP will manage the torque for you and that makes take off and landing super easy as long as you go easy on the collective. As mentioned by others when you want to change roll or pitch develop the habit to push and hold the trimmer get desired roll and pitch with the cyclic and when you reached the desired attitude release the trimmer and center the your physical stick. But remember! When ever you want to change your heading with yaw AP on, do it with your pedals and only assist it with cyclic. Watch the video. It's all explained in 7 minutes

 

 

Danke, if I heard it correctly. Next time I try to experiment more with the autopilot and try to have more focus on the trimmer.

But basically YAW-AP is a normally turned off cheat if you are more used to the huey and a lot of legwork or just want to have a bit more challenge.

[nazradu]

11 minutes ago, Rongor said:

you mentioned double tapping trim for adjusting the new yaw value. What you are doing with this is a trim reset. Resetting your trim to center-neutral is not only abandoning your current perfect roll/pitch attitude, you also don't want that happen when hovering near the ground.

Try it out while in slow speeds near the ground, especially while descending. Your yaw channel has a hard time to understand what you intend to do. In some cases, the yaw channel will take away enough authority to leave you with insufficient anti-torque. You don't want that seconds before landing.

The yaw channel in its current state seems to work for running landings, not so much for air taxi and settling down vertically.

Oh you might got me wrong with that reset advice. It is only for the case that you changed your heading with the cyclic only and therefore have the pedals stuck offset. If you start a change in heading with rudder input you usualy should not come into that state.

But I will test it tomorrow and update if necessary

[ojanim]

15 minutes ago, Rongor said:

you mentioned double tapping trim for adjusting the new yaw value. What you are doing with this is a trim reset. Resetting your trim to center-neutral is not only abandoning your current perfect roll/pitch attitude, you also don't want that happen when hovering near the ground.

Try it out while in slow speeds near the ground, especially while descending. Your yaw channel has a hard time to understand what you intend to do. In some cases, the yaw channel will take away enough authority to leave you with insufficient anti-torque. You don't want that seconds before landing.

The yaw channel in its current state seems to work for running landings, not so much for air taxi and settling down vertically.

 

So the sudden spin during landings I read about in the forum may be the result of too much dependence on the YAW-AP.

Never happend to me because YAW-AP was always turned off during landing, but I got the feeling that the tail rotor seems to be pretty weak.

[Fri13]

9 hours ago, TomChaai said:

The way Mi helicopters are meant to be maneuvered is to hold down the trimmer button whenever you move the cyclic, this ques the autopilot to temporarily give you more control.

 

It is just other of the possibilities, when you make large maneuvers then hold and release. When you are maneuvering at the normal manner, you just keep tapping the trimmer at the rate you want to have controls to stay still.

 

 

That is similar for the Kamov. 

 

 

 

Important part is just to know both ways, and then use them when the situation is such where other is preferable.

 

[jojo]

On 6/21/2021 at 1:38 AM, ojanim said:

 

So the sudden spin during landings I read about in the forum may be the result of too much dependence on the YAW-AP.

Never happend to me because YAW-AP was always turned off during landing, but I got the feeling that the tail rotor seems to be pretty weak.

It can also happen if you are heavy and you try to overcome an excessive sink rate with too much collective, then the anti torque tail raptor may not have enough authority, even in “manual” mode.

 

I don’t think it’s a good idea to compare UH-1 to Mi-24P.

the empty weight of the Hind is twice the maximum weight of the Huey...

 

Flight assistance systems are there to help the pilot.

[VampireNZ]

https://www.flightsafetyaustralia.com/2018/11/lte-the-cliff-edge/

 

 

[AeriaGloria]

On 6/19/2021 at 11:20 AM, TomChaai said:

Not sure about Mi-24, but the Mi-8 actually had switched in the pedals. With feet on the pedals, the yaw channel heading hold and the pedal force trim is inhibited so you can freely use pedals for control inputs. Stabilize the aircraft with pedals and lift the feet, the heading hold will hold new heading.

The game does not simulate "feet-on" switches and instead takes any pedal axis input as "feet-on", this creates a fight between your input and the autopilot and a jolt when you remove pedal input or use trimmer to reset pedal position.

Hope they implement a button input as switch in the future.

I hope to God they implement a binding or special options for the micro switches. Makes transitions rudder pedal directions during a turn not work like they do in real life. 
 

however I just read In the Cold War museum manual that turning off the pedal dampener disables the heading hold. I do not have access to DCS currently but I’m interested to see if that’s implemented as it might be a useful stopgap

[rayrayblues]

On 8/2/2021 at 1:35 AM, AeriaGloria said:

 

however I just read In the Cold War museum manual that turning off the pedal dampener disables the heading hold

 

Yes, turning off the dampener also disables the Yaw AP. Your feet will be very busy if you fly without it.

[S. Low]

On 6/20/2021 at 6:07 PM, Fri13 said:

 

It is just other of the possibilities, when you make large maneuvers then hold and release. When you are maneuvering at the normal manner, you just keep tapping the trimmer at the rate you want to have controls to stay still.

 

 

That is similar for the Kamov. 

 

 

 

Important part is just to know both ways, and then use them when the situation is such where other is preferable.

 

That Ka-50 video was freakin awesome! 

[Dr_Arrow]

If anyone could enlighten me here. I have rudder trimmer disabled, however when using the yaw AP channel sometimes the AP will push my pedal full right or left and it will stick there unless I completely reset the trim. This usually happens during landing I am doing left final descending turn and AP is pushing my right pedal and I am landing with full left pedal (shouldn't the heading AP be OFF in this case?). If I center my pedal heading AP will fight itself, but the pedal will be stuck right. Any advice for that ? I know I can turn it off for approaches and landings, but I just wanted to understand how it really works to be able to cooperate with the heading channel.

[Mins]

19 hours ago, Dr_Arrow said:

If anyone could enlighten me here. I have rudder trimmer disabled, however when using the yaw AP channel sometimes the AP will push my pedal full right or left and it will stick there unless I completely reset the trim. This usually happens during landing I am doing left final descending turn and AP is pushing my right pedal and I am landing with full left pedal (shouldn't the heading AP be OFF in this case?). If I center my pedal heading AP will fight itself, but the pedal will be stuck right. Any advice for that ? I know I can turn it off for approaches and landings, but I just wanted to understand how it really works to be able to cooperate with the heading channel.

Hey! There are contacts on the pedals and when the pilot puts his feet on the pedals, the AP is turned off in the direction - AP in standby mode . And in reality, the pilot very rarely takes his feet off the pedals, perhaps only when a straight, long route. Therefore, in the simulator, when landing or active piloting, it is correct when the "autopilot" is disabled on the heading channel. I'm sorry to use a translator.

Edited August 8, 2021 by Mins

[AeriaGloria]

With feet on It’s heading hold is disabled but not SAS mode, with feet on it will still apply corrections in any direction like any SAS, I would very much like ED to make a binding or special options so that when desired the pedals can be close to center or transitioning through center without going into heading hold and throwing off my nose. 
 

I will keep bringing this up until I have a response of yay or nay ED

 

I have noticed even a few percent from center they still stay in heading hold mode, making precise adjustments in that region difficult/impossible, especially when IRL manuals say that procedurally your are instructed to turn it on while in the air at all times 

Edited August 8, 2021 by AeriaGloria

[Lurker]

There is a lot of very wrong information in this thread. There is absolutely no reason why the SAS-YAW channel should be disabled in any part of the flight regime other than when taxing with wheels on tarmac. 

[rayrayblues]

1 hour ago, Lurker said:

There is a lot of very wrong information in this thread. There is absolutely no reason why the SAS-YAW channel should be disabled in any part of the flight regime other than when taxing with wheels on tarmac. 

 

Boy you said a mouth full.    I can't believe some of the things I've read here and in other similar threads.

The worst are the ones saying that it is cheat, or that that it causes you to spin when landing and they never use AP or trims. (Real "macho guys")

NEWS FLASH.....It's not a cheat. The manufacturer put it there for a reason. It is an integral part of operating the aircraft smoothly and safely. Work smarter, not harder.

It is especially useful when taking off and landing. It will overcome the tendency for the tail rotor to enter VRS also known as LTE (Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness)  

The downwash from the main rotor will cause this in certain wind conditions.

 

On 6/22/2021 at 1:00 PM, jojo said:

Flight assistance systems are there to help the pilot.

 

AMEN Brother!    Truer words were never spoken.

 

 

On 6/20/2021 at 2:38 PM, ojanim said:

So the sudden spin during landings I read about in the forum may be the result of too much dependence on the YAW-AP.

Never happened to me because YAW-AP was always turned off during landing,      

 

You have got it exactly backwards Dude. Not enough dependence on the Yaw AP will make you spin. 

I don't believe you when you say that it "Never Happened" with the AP off. That's not the way this bird flies.

This is a large and heavy bird, especially when loaded down with weapons. It is not a sports car, It's a bus. Drive it like a bus.

Proper use of trims and AP, with slow and gentle inputs will make a world of difference. When the Yaw AP is on you must use the pedals as well as the stick to turn.

Don't try to turn with just the stick. Pressing the pedals cancels the AP momentarily allowing you to make a coordinated turn, just like in a plane,

then when you straighten out pointed in the new direction, release the pedal gently and the AP will re-engage and hold the new heading.

 

I use Yaw AP mostly for take offs and landings (to avoid LTE) and for holding a heading on a long trip. I turn it off in combat though, for "relatively" quick maneuvers.

When I first got this bird, I had a hell of a time trying to control her. Especially landings. I thought I would never get the hang of it. I also fly:  Huey, Hip, and Shark.

Speaking of landings, there seems to be a lot of differing opinions. My take is this:  When descending for a landing,  (vertical or rolling)

there is a critical moment just when you transition from translational lift to ground effect, especially on vertical approaches, when the tail rotor

seems to have gone on a coffee break. and all of a sudden, you are spinning like a top. When I am approaching my LZ, I line it up in the center of the windscreen

and turn the Yaw AP on. It will hold my heading and I can concentrate on using the cyclic and collective for a smooth controlled landing every time.

Of course your other trim settings and glide slope are also very important. Remember, slow and gentle all the time. 

Treat her like a good woman and she will love you forever.

 

GL & HF  

 

 

[Mins]

The SAS on the direction channel should be turned on, but when the pilot puts his feet on the pedals, the switch is triggered (it is located under the pedal) and the SAS goes into standby mode and does not help to keep the course. And the pilot almost always keeps on the pedals. Therefore, in the simulator, this is the same as flying with the SAS turned off in the direction. In the simulator, everyone chooses how convenient it is, but the logic in the simulator is turned on and off according to other conditions, roll and other moments ... this is not right, but there is no other way to do it. By the way, because we don't have switches under the pedals. I always fly with the SAS turned off in the direction and on the Mi-24, Mi-8. Excuse the translator

Edited August 9, 2021 by Mins

[kotor633]

Am 21.6.2021 um 00:07 schrieb Fri13:

 

It is just other of the possibilities, when you make large maneuvers then hold and release. When you are maneuvering at the normal manner, you just keep tapping the trimmer at the rate you want to have controls to stay still.

 

 

Thanks for the videos. In the video for the Mil Mi-17, I think it's amazing how often the trimmer button is pressed here. But related to DCS: That only works if I have set 'Default' in the options for the trimmer mode ... doesn't it? 

[Mins]

2 часа назад kotor633 сказал:

Спасибо за видео.

No. "By default" or "waiting for a return to the center" Are program settings, so that no roll or pitch values are added. In the first case, the joystick is turned off for 0.5 seconds so that you return it to the center, in the second case, the joystick is turned off until you return it to the center yourself.therefore, it will not work exactly as in the video. The helicopter will not accurately work out the new position of the control handle.You need to always release the joystick (if it has springs) so that the value is not added. I use a translator

Edited August 10, 2021 by Mins

[Dr_Arrow]

On 8/8/2021 at 6:41 AM, AeriaGloria said:

I have noticed even a few percent from center they still stay in heading hold mode, making precise adjustments in that region difficult/impossible, especially when IRL manuals say that procedurally your are instructed to turn it on while in the air at all times 

Thank you so much for this, I might have found the source of my problems - big curves on pedals, have probably caused that I was fighting the AP. Since I removed the curve from my pedal axis it works as it should (I always leave it on), I also think that it should be always ON as it also provides oscillations damping when the heading hold mode is disengaged. 

[Mins]

 

1 hour ago, Dr_Arrow said:

Thank you so much for this, I might have found the source of my problems - big curves on pedals, have probably caused that I was fighting the AP. Since I removed the curve from my pedal axis it works as it should (I always leave it on), I also think that it should be always ON as it also provides oscillations damping when the heading hold mode is disengaged. 

Here is an interesting video. Mi-8 T. At 7:36, you can see the check on the direction channel when the pilot presses the pedal. The video is just for information 

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Mins

[Lurker]

Yeah, I think that there is a control bug or maybe even a design flaw in the way that the YAW SAS microswitches are engaged in the DCS Mi24p. So far, what works best is 0 curves, and 0 dead-zone, anything else will mess up your pedal and yaw control with YAW SAS Channel on. 

[Mins]

Yes, but I'm talking about reality, that is, in fact, pilots fly with the direction channel always in standby (coordination) mode, And only when they take their feet off the pedals to rest on the route, the directional autopilot works.   

 

 

Added: in the video, they fly from takeoff to landing with the SAS direction channel turned off. The Mi-8 and Mi-24 are very similar in terms of the SAS logic.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Mins

[AeriaGloria]

Occurs to me then that heading hold should work at any pedal input as long as feet are off and pedals stay where they are, so the current operation is limiting anyone with pedals that have no self centering of using heading hold outside of the +/-9% range that heading hold is engaged and input is taken away from you. 
 

I found out with joystick gremlin that that is how far the dead zone that the “micro switches” are inactivated and heading hold is on. I made a profile to instantly turn off the yaw AP within that range and turn it on outside that range so that you always have SAS/coordination mode, and can turn it off with a switch or turn it on manually when heading hold mode is Desired, I think I’ll start a new thread in wishlist and post my profile there 

Edited August 12, 2021 by AeriaGloria