CCIP with rockets

[Harlikwin]

Does the CCIP "Auto" sight work with rockets at all? Its very accurate with guns from what I can see. But if I flip the switch over to rockets, its more or less useless, does it work at all for computing rocket trajectories or am I doing it wrong?

 

[XPACT]

I think it's just calculation error, it's using only radar altimeter height and aircraft pitch angle to compute solution of course with gyro to account for aircraft movement but any weapon that has slower velocity will have worse predicted impact point because in that case elevation difference error gets bigger automatically (if target is at different elevation compared to what is below your aircraft then results will be way off)

 

With gun since rounds are pretty fast and usually used at shorter distance it's almost always pretty much in the center of sight anyway without any other movement from aircraft (if there is movement weapons control system will compute solution for that with help of gyro no problem also)

Edited June 17, 2021 by XPACT

[lmp]

I found it pretty accurate providing:

a) you're over flat terrain,

b) you're in range, the amber light is on,

c) the rocket type is actually compatible with the gunsight's automatic mode - the S-13 and S-24 aren't.

 

I also shot pretty much exclusively in unsynchronized mode, which works great in no wind against non moving targets. Synchronized mode is supposed to account for those factors but you then need to track the target for a bit before firing.

[Czechnology]

I've been having some pretty big issues with it even over level terrain, for some reason it lands extremely long consistently. Not sure if I'm setting the sight up wrong (Gunner seat - Main Safety - USR Switch up - Gun sight on - AUTO - ASYNC - Automatic Range).

[Harlikwin]

Yeah I got it to work with S-5's, too bad they need a direct hit to kill anything with a bit of armor, but I guess thats real. Pretty sure I was firing well out of range before. 

[iLOVEwindmills]

Had the same issue, make sure you tell petrovich to warm up the weapons first, that seems to make the sight work properly. Or try an in-flight start, it will have everything ready to go I think. Starting hot from the ground things still need to be turned on.

[Czechnology]

26 minutes ago, iLOVEwindmills said:

Had the same issue, make sure you tell petrovich to warm up the weapons first, that seems to make the sight work properly. Or try an in-flight start, it will have everything ready to go I think. Starting hot from the ground things still need to be turned on.

It's more an issue of I want to figure it out without petrovich. I have a buddy who's really interested in doing the operator seat while I fly, so I want to be able to set up the sight without AI assistance.

[Eldur]

I tried it yesterday and it was completely messed up with any weapons. But I made the mistake of bringing both GUV pods and rockets so I couldn't even fire off the rockets. Guess that also messed up the trajectory calculations. Even the onboard 2-30mm was totally off.

[CoBlue]

CCIP works OK with S-5/8 & guns on my end. S-24 I cant get ccip. Just make sure you select the pre-made weapon-loadouts. Don't put things on the hardpoints yourself.

[Fri13]

The CCIP works odd way IMHO.

It starts to calculate distance at very short ranges. Other time it just stays below gunsight and doesn't move until half way the launch ranges. And you know it is getting there when it starts to raise from bottom.

 

I am already custom to use fixed reticle and estimate range myself as I can't engage from max ranges with calculation. 

 

Example I have a fixed on target, CCIP is bottom of gunsight, and S-5 rockets flies well over the target and hit far away.

Simply meaning that there is major range capability that is not usable.

 

Haven't tested yet, but I think you need higher altitude than 300-500 meters and deeper dive angle to get it working properly.

[Harlikwin]

5 minutes ago, Fri13 said:

The CCIP works odd way IMHO.

It starts to calculate distance at very short ranges. Other time it just stays below gunsight and doesn't move until half way the launch ranges. And you know it is getting there when it starts to raise from bottom.

 

I am already custom to use fixed reticle and estimate range myself as I can't engage from max ranges with calculation. 

 

Example I have a fixed on target, CCIP is bottom of gunsight, and S-5 rockets flies well over the target and hit far away.

Simply meaning that there is major range capability that is not usable.

 

Haven't tested yet, but I think you need higher altitude than 300-500 meters and deeper dive angle to get it working properly.

 

Hm. Yeah it seems like it works too short range to me as well.  Seems like there should a "loft" option, or mobile Katyusha option

Edited June 18, 2021 by Harlikwin

[Fri13]

8 hours ago, Harlikwin said:

 

Hm. Yeah it seems like it works too short range to me as well.  Seems like there should a "loft" option, or mobile Katyusha option

 

I haven't tested it from higher altitude than that few hundred meters. Maybe it work if flying at 700-1000 meters?

 

Now AI is engaging their 12.7 mm and even 7.62 before the sight starts to move up, closer to fixed reticle to calculate distance.

 

I understand that you can't have accurate sight at 60-100 meters for ranges like 3000m because flashlight effect being way too narrow. 

But one could think that at 300-500m you would have accurate pipper past maximum firing range?

 

I made few high altitude raises, don't know that to what altitude exactly, but as high that you start to feel that A-10 flies below you.

But same thing that CCIP was well below fixed and rockets hit above targets when aiming with it.

 

Many times the CCIP has been above fixed one before its range scale starts to move and calculate range.

 

But maybe again the map scale feeling is problem, as 1000 meters looks like a 300 meters when the trees are like 50 meters wide and 100 meters tall as there isn't really smaller objects to give visual scale.

 

It is really simple sight system by calculating impact point only based the nose down attitude. So you need to get nose radically down ASAP, or it doesn't give range.

 

But one would have though that it constantly calculate impact point based own radar altimeter, but it is needing own fixed sight turn downward and then CCIP starts to raise up slowly to meet fixed and then you might be suddenly minimum range when it decides to wind up range scale.

[Nealius]

I concur on the short ranges. I set the system to 1.5km yet the CCIP for the fixed 30mm, S-5 and S-8 rockets never registers in-range until I'm 300-500m away from the target, making me a sitting duck for the overdeveloped laser-skilled AI ground gunners. 

[WinterH]

My conclusion: learn judging range and manually shoot a huge salvo from maximum range, and hope for the best. CCIP is decently accurate, but only at ranges that aren't useful against anything that can fight back, so feels like more of a mop-up tool. Perhaps it is due to the nature of the system: just triangulating based on nose attitude and radar altimeter reading. So the ranges it can provide meaningful calculation is limited maybe?

 

Until I get better with it, manual salvo from long range tends to get 1-4 kills with all 80 rockets for now. Terrible huh? Not really, because usually it does suppress by damaging threating units enough so that they can't fire back anymore! Then I move in with gun to mop-up. Even one or two rockets landing in general postcode seems to be enough to get MANPADS dudes (somehow, I feel like they die easier than regular infantry, but maybe wrong). If you get that Shilka, Avenger, or Strela below 50%, they won't be a threat anymore, and rockets does have the range to do so when used manually. Accuracy gets dicey of course, but it's not like they are meant to be a precision weapon anyway  This way I can use rockets from 2-4ish kms, while the aiming computer only seems to work from 1km or less.

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, Nealius said:

I concur on the short ranges. I set the system to 1.5km yet the CCIP for the fixed 30mm, S-5 and S-8 rockets never registers in-range until I'm 300-500m away from the target, making me a sitting duck for the overdeveloped laser-skilled AI ground gunners. 

 

What is your altitude?

 

Try to pop-up over 500 meters to engage targets at 2 km.

 

Would need to turn labels on to see proper ranges and how really the pipper works at higher altitudes.

 

[Fri13]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

My conclusion: learn judging range and manually shoot a huge salvo from maximum range, and hope for the best. CCIP is decently accurate, but only at ranges that aren't useful against anything that can fight back, so feels like more of a mop-up tool. Perhaps it is due to the nature of the system: just triangulating based on nose attitude and radar altimeter reading. So the ranges it can provide meaningful calculation is limited maybe?

 

Only reading it can get are radar altimeter, and vertical attitude from gyro. Both values are instant in the avionics, just by looking radar altimeter and attitude.

 

Now, why does it take so long for CCIP to start raising from the bottom, even when it range scale works? 

 

It is waiting for that 500 meters or something ranges before it suddenly wakes up and decides "Let me show where you really shoot at".

Before that you have it snoozing and drooppiing bottom.

 

 

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

Until I get better with it, manual salvo from long range tends to get 1-4 kills with all 80 rockets for now. Terrible huh? Not really, because usually it does suppress by damaging threating units enough so that they can't fire back anymore!

 

It isn't terrible at all. Need to remember that you likely have 2/4 helicopters in one wave, and then 3-4 waves coming in. There is a lot of firepower just with rockets.

 

Then you fly to rearm and return to do same.

Enemy can't hold their ground for long against such attacks.

 

I really like the S-5 rockets. 128 of them and 4 ATGM. That makes very effective attack.

 

My usual test group was scattered to 200 x 500 meters area.

4x AAVP-7

2x M-113

2x HMMV

And it was surprising easy to annihilate everyone with rockets and gun.

It requires 2-3 straight over flying. And typically third is the one when you get shot down. 

 

Adding 4x ATGM to beging and you get all APC really easily, then finish with gun and rockets.

 

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

Then I move in with gun to mop-up. Even one or two rockets landing in general postcode seems to be enough to get MANPADS dudes (somehow, I feel like they die easier than regular infantry, but maybe wrong).

 

I haven't tested against infantry, as infantry is abysmal in DCS. 

 

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

If you get that Shilka, Avenger, or Strela below 50%, they won't be a threat anymore, and rockets does have the range to do so when used manually.

 

That is the problem, manually requiring to aim with fixed pipper. Range is there, but at the moment it is not much better than Mi-8. With such system I would have replaced it 30n years ago for something that gives some estimation even.

 

 

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

Accuracy gets dicey of course, but it's not like they are meant to be a precision weapon anyway  This way I can use rockets from 2-4ish kms, while the aiming computer only seems to work from 1km or less.

 

I believe you should have a good idea at to that 3-4 km range, not accurate but area effect. Now the rockets hit so close grouping that it is difficult to aim.

 

And I have so far being doing this testing at the famous X field at Caucasus. So flat terrain to start.

 

But it can't be so that one needs to dive in 30° angle to get accurate pipper...?

 

[Nealius]

2 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

What is your altitude?

 

Try to pop-up over 500 meters to engage targets at 2 km.

 

Would need to turn labels on to see proper ranges and how really the pipper works at higher altitudes.

 

 

From an altitude a little less than 1,000m I can get rockets in the general target area from about 2km, but no direct hits and zero damage on M113s. To score hits I need to be well within their 50cal range and I just get chewed up.

[The_Tau]

I might be stupid and i missed something, but for me very often CCIP is stuck right in the middle of fixed cross (they aim same point), range changes but cross remain stuck. CCIP for 30 mm gun seem to work fine, but for S8 rockets it works exactly same as fixed cross. Did I forgot switch somewhere?

[Fri13]

5 hours ago, The_Tau said:

I might be stupid and i missed something, but for me very often CCIP is stuck right in the middle of fixed cross (they aim same point), range changes but cross remain stuck. CCIP for 30 mm gun seem to work fine, but for S8 rockets it works exactly same as fixed cross. Did I forgot switch somewhere?

 

Either Manual/Automatic switch left of weapons selector knob.

Or left edge on ASP-17 sight, the bottom black switch for Auto.

 

 

[Fri13]

19 hours ago, Nealius said:

 

From an altitude a little less than 1,000m I can get rockets in the general target area from about 2km, but no direct hits and zero damage on M113s. To score hits I need to be well within their 50cal range and I just get chewed up.

 

But do you get CCIP sight moving to proper position, or are you required use fixed sight and estimate range?

 

At longer ranges rockets spread, those are area of effect weapons after all. Problem is we don't have fragmentation modeling so you need direct hit.

 

But that is not the question here, but that why the CCIP stays so low and incorrect until you get so close to targets that they get to shoot you first?

 

Like how can you make a ambush from hover with rockets or gun when you don't get sight telling where you are hitting?

[Nealius]

1 hour ago, Fri13 said:

Like how can you make a ambush from hover with rockets or gun when you don't get sight telling where you are hitting?

 

You can't. I popped up from behind a hill, and as soon as I crested it the M113's 50cal opened up on me. I unleased my S-8KOM salvo with CCIP on target, amber light lit. All rockets landed around the M113 but dealt 0% damage, while he, unphased by the concussive blasts all around him, peppered my airframe with 50cal. 

 

Even at sub-1km range on unarmored trucks the rockets deal 0% damage. Unless one lucky rocket scores a direct hit.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Nealius

[VampireNZ]

One small point - you need to be pointed at the ground for the sight to work correctly (so some decent speed on). Seems obvious I know, but easy to be 'too level' and it won't be able to calculate CCIP properly. If you are positioned correctly you can get good accuracy out at max range.

 

If you want to sit there hovering and shooting gun/rockets, just use fixed sight and fire-and-adjust.

[Nealius]

What dive angle are we talking? I'm usually terrain masking, so my rocket runs are typically around the 10-degree range. 

[The_Tau]

4 hours ago, Fri13 said:

 

Either Manual/Automatic switch left of weapons selector knob.

Or left edge on ASP-17 sight, the bottom black switch for Auto.

 

 

I had them in correct position, as I said, 30mm gun sight works fine, only rockets sight is "stuck" at fixed reticle 

Edited June 20, 2021 by The_Tau

[WinterH]

10 minutes ago, Nealius said:

What dive angle are we talking? I'm usually terrain masking, so my rocket runs are typically around the 10-degree range. 

The thing with terrain masking and Hind's ballistic computer is, if you are unmasking behind something like a hill, and your targets are below your level (which they most likely are), then the computer will be inaccurate. It's ideal when used over mostly level terrain.

 

10 hours ago, The_Tau said:

CCIP for 30 mm gun seem to work fine, but for S8 rockets it works exactly same as fixed cross. Did I forgot switch somewhere?

Did you carry other weapon types besides Shturm + S-8? If so, ballistics computer may have went nuts. Any loadout other than default presets may cause either buggy or realistically broken behavior from what I understand. I had it once when I tried to have both S-8 pods and GUV-8700 gunpod for example.