Those having trouble flying..

[Rogue Trooper]

15 minutes ago, Paganus said:

I'm surprised Mi-8 pilots are struggling. It feels familiar and comfortable to me. 

 

 

Me too.

In fact it is exactly the same as the MI-8 but smoother, disable the yaw AP unless on a long journey.

[Hammer1-1]

Im having a lot of fun flying it, and Ive flown every heli in the sim. Reliably. Even the Gaz which I wonder why everyone complains about considering its the helicopter equivalent to the F-16.

[Oban]

Now I know why I should have purchased some rudder pedals.

I have no issues at all the the fast air, but holy shitballs, the Hind is like quantum physics.

Wags makes hovering look easy.. I spin like a dervish .. I guess patience is a virtue.. and it's an unforgiving bird when it crashes.  I've had more deaths in the Hind since release  with 3 hours of flight time, than 12 months of Deaths and 200+ hours in the F18 !!

[SparxOne]

So yeah just to give my personnal feedback too.

 

Pretty much unflyable to me. This is my first chopper in DCS so it's hard for me to make a comparison unfortunately. Am flying it with a Microsoft sidewinder force feedback 2 joystick (I have been using that joystick for a decade minimum and have managed flying pretty much anything in a good manner in games that have flyable machines).

I have tried flying the Hind with the AP switches ON and OFF to try and test if one or the other made a difference but with no success with either.

 

I tried applying force trim to ease up things on me when slowly increasing thrust (Wags mentions force trim in his hover video which i take it to be the "T" by default keybind), but once again doesn't seem to change much as the chopper remains very sensitive and hard on the controls. Yes i did change the curves in the axis options to try and reduce the sensitivity, all my curves except thrust one went from 0 -> 20 -> 40, yet still felt as sensitive as normal "0" and therefore very hard to control the moment the thrust starts to lift the chopper.

 

Pressing T to force trim seems unreliable to me, hard to explain the actual feeling i'm getting from it but i feel like i still need to constantly apply hard controls to keep the chopper steady in a cruise flight (Straight line flying).

 

I've encountered some very strange behaviors while going from 60-70% power to 100% than back down to 20-30%, the chopper tends to pitch up and down really hard by just changing power settings to a point where i loose total control.

 

I'll try and remember myself to do a demo flight including all of what i've said and link it as a track file for anyone curious to see it first hand.

 

All in all, the chopper to me feels like it needs too much constant adjustment to fly smooth and steady especially while taking off and at low speeds, while cruising i'm simply unable to set up a way of allowing it to fly in a straight line without keeping my hand on the stick with applied force.

 

Coming from a plane background (DCS F-16 flyer), trims and stability feels MUCH more intuitive and easy/smooth to control. (Literally am finding AA refueling pretty easy by how smooth it feels to me, even though it could simply not be a reference, i feel like i've seen a lot of people mentioning how they were struggling with it while on my side it feels like i've always done it before).

Could also just be me being a massive noob at flying a chopper in DCS, but after the experience i'm getting flying it so far, i'm pretty concerned with the whole situation i've described

 

Maybe more tweeking for me to do here and there ? Learn some stuff i'm not aware off ? Who knows, i'll give it more tries in the following days.

 

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by SparxOne

[RealDCSpilot]

@SparxOne
preparation: forget about how you operate a plane, this is something different. Imagine being a race driver, who constantly has to play with pedals, shifter and steering wheel to run the race car in optimal conditions for maximum speed.  
1. Check if you need to inverse the FFB axis options for X and Y.
2. Never use axis input saturation curves or dead zones for helicopter cyclic or the FFB will get out of sync with your input. Always use default linear input.
3. Never just tap the trimmer button, always push and hold it while moving the cyclic.
4. I recommend disabling the rudder trimmer option, because it get's confusing very quickly (since we don't have FFB trimmable rudder pedals). Just hold the rudder pedals where they need to be.
5. Think of it this way, every change of attitude needs readjusting of cyclic, trimmer, collective and pedals. During combat maneuvering, starting and landing - you are playing with inputs constantly.

Edited June 19, 2021 by RealDCSpilot

[Hammer1-1]

2 hours ago, SparxOne said:

So yeah just to give my personnal feedback too.

 

Pretty much unflyable to me. This is my first chopper in DCS so it's hard for me to make a comparison unfortunately. Am flying it with a Microsoft sidewinder force feedback 2 joystick (I have been using that joystick for a decade minimum and have managed flying pretty much anything in a good manner in games that have flyable machines).

I have tried flying the Hind with the AP switches ON and OFF to try and test if one or the other made a difference but with no success with either.

 

you flying with rudder pedals too? If not, then theres an option in DCS that allows you to trim your yaw axis alongside your pitch and roll. Cant just have one controller with only 2 moments to control an aircraft with 3.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[Whisper]

8 hours ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Me too.

In fact it is exactly the same as the MI-8 but smoother, disable the yaw AP unless on a long journey.

Not exactly the same, though, for me.

I think the huge wings play a big role during translational movement, and that affects the behavior most of us expect from flying the other DCS choppers.

Notably, the moment where the wings stop producing lift is a critical one and the hind drops suddenly like a brick. If you are decelerating fast, you may not be prepared to this super sudden increase in rate of descent.

Added to that, I find the trail rotor rather weak, it's like it can barely keep the aircraft stable at max collective, and if you are at altitude, it can prove tricky during hover.

Third thing, I feel like the collective has more "lag" , I really need to anticipate more on the collective when approaching hovering phases, the Hip feels more responsive on this.

 

Another effect of the wings appear at speed, they add their lift to any pitch change, making the hind very reactive to pitching up, which will end catastrophically if the pitch goes past the max AOA , the wings suddenly stop producing lift and are huge airbrakes, the hind drops down while flipping its nose upward, and you need quite a bit of altitude and self control to recover from that

 

Well, at least these are my interpretations of what I witnessed flying the hind so far, I hope the manual, or some hind expert, will come up soon to explain some of its behavior

Edited June 19, 2021 by Whisper

[Scofflaw]

2 hours ago, Whisper said:

 

Notably, the moment where the wings stop producing lift is a critical one and the hind drops suddenly like a brick. If you are decelerating fast, you may not be prepared to this super sudden increase in rate of descent.

 

 

I wonder if this is what I've been experiencing.  I was approaching a location to scout for more targets, and as I ended my J-shaped turn, all of a sudden I completely lost all lift and dropped like a rock.  I did my whole approach and turn at approximately 50km/h, so I didn't think it was my speed, but I honestly wasn't paying THAT much attention to my speed.

 

 

[Whisper]

Beware, these are purely my interpretations it could be something else entirely.
 

[Raven434th]

peoples setups are a BIG factor too...maybe we need a better way of "calibrating" our individual systems setups to DCS...Something more visual in the interface pertaining to each individual aircraft.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Raven434th

[SparxOne]

8 hours ago, RealDCSpilot said:

preparation: forget about how you operate a plane, this is something different. Imagine being a race driver, who constantly has to play with pedals, shifter and steering wheel to run the race car in optimal conditions for maximum speed.  
1. Check if you need to inverse the FFB axis options for X and Y.
2. Never use axis input saturation curves or dead zones for helicopter cyclic or the FFB will get out of sync with your inout. Always use default linear input.
3. Never just tap the trimmer button, always push and hold it while moving the cyclic.
4. I recommend disabling the rudder trimmer option, because it get's confusing very quickly (since we don't have FFB trimmable rudder pedals). Just hold the rudder pedals where they need to be.
5. Think of it this way, every change of attitude needs readjusting of cyclic, trimmer, collective and pedals. During combat maneuvering, starting and landing - you are playing with inputs constantly.

 

Hey thanks a lot for the awesome reply ! Glad you detailed it that way, makes it much more comprehensive for me  You seem to know well concerning the FFB, are you using that MS FFB 2 too ?

I do not use rudder pedals by the way, am using the simple twist axis on my joystick which always worked well for me.

I'll apply your points and see for myself if it makes it somehow bareable  ! Thanks a lot for the help !

 

8 hours ago, Hammer1-1 said:

you flying with rudder pedals too? If not, then theres an option in DCS that allows you to trim your yaw axis alongside your pitch and roll. Cant just have one controller with only 2 moments to control an aircraft with 3.

 

Hey there, thanks also for the reply ! As said above, i do not use rudder pedals but instead my twist axis on my joystick. So i will therefore check the option you mention ! Thanks a lot for the help too

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by SparxOne

[Hiob]

16 hours ago, Raven434th said:

I think they need to build in some tolerance's to compensate for peoples hardware...ie type,age,ware,deadzones etc. It just too twitchy.

Has nothing to do with the quality of hardware.

[Raven434th]

That's bull... It's a factor for sure,,, joysticks get worn and sloppy, aspects of this sim (aiming the gunner sight in hind for e.g.)require a high level of precision.

 

Edited June 19, 2021 by Raven434th

[sublime]

For me a lot of the aspects that seemed uncontrollable or very difficult weren't that difficult to chop down to size and see lots of progress.

You just have to get time in her. Mess with the trim a lot, change options etc. One thing is that because it's a helo you have to trim a lot more than a plane. Sometimes almost constantly.

I at least am starting to get hovers down from speed and landing vertically as opposed to like a airplane.

I also noticed changing the trim type in the special tab helped a lot. Before I had the non ffb stick option set.  But the next one on the list works way better for me and the trim position holds my cyclic inputs as well now (something it didnt before)

To what raven is saying I agree. Some people have entirely different setups - one guy has just hotas another none another hotas and pedals.  If someone has those instruments they help but they can also hurt if they're not working right or calibrated correctly.

I personally don't have pedals but have a hotas and I'm feeling it now

[Soulres]

I toggle the APs on and off, so if I will be turning, I'll pop the Rudder trim off, If I am going to land, I pop the Pitch trim off.. When comming in for an attack run I pop the rudder and and pitch off together. gives me better control as it'll fight you.

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Raven434th said:

That's bull... It's a factor for sure,,, joysticks get worn and sloppy, aspects of this sim (aiming the gunner sight in hind for e.g.)require a high level of precision.

 

 

Yes, but I have brand new high tier hardware.... and no such problems in any other module. So I can easily rule this out as a cause for my difficulties with the Mi-24.

 

In fact, I solved the issue (for me) thanks to another thread. The autopilot doesn't do it for me. When I leave it completely off, the feeling is right and the controlability - even the yaw/rudder is fine. 

[nazradu]

Just my 2cents on the yaw and stuck pedal stuff.

[heloguy]

1 hour ago, Soulres said:

I toggle the APs on and off, so if I will be turning, I'll pop the Rudder trim off, If I am going to land, I pop the Pitch trim off.. When comming in for an attack run I pop the rudder and and pitch off together. gives me better control as it'll fight you.

Or, just hold the trim release while you do any of those maneuvers. 

[Mars Exulte]

20 hours ago, Raven434th said:

I think they need to build in some tolerance's to compensate for peoples hardware...ie type,age,ware,deadzones etc. It just too twitchy.

  They have that already, it's the literal purpose of the axis configuration screen, where you can set saturation, curvature, and deadzones per axis, and even adjust it in a non-linear fashion.

[Whisper]

1 hour ago, nazradu said:

Just my 2cents on the yaw and stuck pedal stuff.

The Yaw "trim" is kind of misunderstood and it explains the behavior seen in your video and against which you struggle.

You'll notice that on ED missions, quick missions, etc.... that Yaw Channel is not selected.

The Yaw channel is not a trim, it's linked to the gyros and, the moment it is pressed, it will apply yaw so that the nose keeps pointing in the azimuth it was when you pressed it.

So imagine you press the Yaw channel ON button while facing north, then turn right eastward. The Yaw channel will apply left Yaw to try to push the nose of the aircraft back north. It's working the same way as the Yaw channel in the Ka50, actually, if I'm not mistaken.

I basically don't use this channel. It should be usefull during a missile run, for example, you align on target, activate Yaw AP, and don't have to bother with the rudder anymore to keep your nose right on your target azimuth.

[Hammer1-1]

Im not sure if this has been said yet, but for everyone having issues with the helicopter yawing to one direction this is how the autopilot system works:

when you have all channels activated (pitch roll and yaw) you're trimming those axises with the trimmer button. Yaw gets trimmed by stepping on the rudder pedals, turning the heading you wish to go, and hitting the trimmer button and it locks in your heading. it gets used in conjunction with the HSI and selecting the course you wish to follow.

[Ikaros]

21 hours ago, SparxOne said:

So yeah just to give my personnal feedback too.

 

Pretty much unflyable to me. This is my first chopper in DCS so it's hard for me to make a comparison unfortunately. Am flying it with a Microsoft sidewinder force feedback 2 joystick (I have been using that joystick for a decade minimum and have managed flying pretty much anything in a good manner in games that have flyable machines).

I have tried flying the Hind with the AP switches ON and OFF to try and test if one or the other made a difference but with no success with either.

 

I tried applying force trim to ease up things on me when slowly increasing thrust (Wags mentions force trim in his hover video which i take it to be the "T" by default keybind), but once again doesn't seem to change much as the chopper remains very sensitive and hard on the controls. Yes i did change the curves in the axis options to try and reduce the sensitivity, all my curves except thrust one went from 0 -> 20 -> 40, yet still felt as sensitive as normal "0" and therefore very hard to control the moment the thrust starts to lift the chopper.

 

Pressing T to force trim seems unreliable to me, hard to explain the actual feeling i'm getting from it but i feel like i still need to constantly apply hard controls to keep the chopper steady in a cruise flight (Straight line flying).

 

I've encountered some very strange behaviors while going from 60-70% power to 100% than back down to 20-30%, the chopper tends to pitch up and down really hard by just changing power settings to a point where i loose total control.

 

I'll try and remember myself to do a demo flight including all of what i've said and link it as a track file for anyone curious to see it first hand.

 

All in all, the chopper to me feels like it needs too much constant adjustment to fly smooth and steady especially while taking off and at low speeds, while cruising i'm simply unable to set up a way of allowing it to fly in a straight line without keeping my hand on the stick with applied force.

 

Coming from a plane background (DCS F-16 flyer), trims and stability feels MUCH more intuitive and easy/smooth to control. (Literally am finding AA refueling pretty easy by how smooth it feels to me, even though it could simply not be a reference, i feel like i've seen a lot of people mentioning how they were struggling with it while on my side it feels like i've always done it before).

Could also just be me being a massive noob at flying a chopper in DCS, but after the experience i'm getting flying it so far, i'm pretty concerned with the whole situation i've described

 

Maybe more tweeking for me to do here and there ? Learn some stuff i'm not aware off ? Who knows, i'll give it more tries in the following days.

 

 

 

 

Two things:

 

1. Hardware controls make a big difference. When I first started using DCS I was using the cheap Logitech 30$ joystick that has been around for ages and helicopters were basically unflyable. Switching to a Thrustmaster Warthog Hotas with rudder pedals helped immensely and I fly them with mostly no issues now.

 

2. Helicopters are not like airplanes. In real life and in DCS you have to use very gentle inputs on the stick. You do not make large pitch and roll inputs like you would in an airplane.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Ikaros

[sublime]

What's with the route ap then? Can you activate say route ap or hover so without the yaw or alt channels on or do all need to be on?

For hover how close to a dead non drift hover dya need to be?

Edited June 19, 2021 by sublime

[Hammer1-1]

36 minutes ago, sublime said:

What's with the route ap then? Can you activate say route ap or hover so without the yaw or alt channels on or do all need to be on?

For hover how close to a dead non drift hover dya need to be?

 

Im still learning how to do this in any russian heli, but I do know that if you have an autopilot channel activated, those channels get trimmed to the current position you have your controls in at the time you hit the trim switch. In the Mi8, you can further fine tune with the rotary knobs to trim it out a little better, in the 24 there are similar rotaries and I dont think they work yet....(afaik). The channels not activated are unaffected and require manual input the entire time.

Edited June 19, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[Raven434th]

Also people...check your axis in tuning  for "spiking /stutter" I happened to go in and noticed this... when I checked the blackshark settings they were stable, no spiking. So I deleted the inputs for hind and they where back to normal. So something went wrong somewhere.