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The rudder yaw that keeps from flying straight


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"Why is aircraft yaw so difficult to control?

When you first enter an air-start mission, the controls are set to a stable setting to avoid going out of control. You can then reset the controls or adjust based on their starting position.

 

Also, if you have the Yaw channel of the Auto Pilot engaged, let it control rudder input in straight and level flight / hover and don’t fight against it."

 

From the FAQ just posted. There's SOMETHING off, somewhere. Because the airstart puts you into a hard left yaw and not into a stable flight setting. Just like how some of us are getting our pedals "stuck" after start up or take off or somewhere.


Edited by Relic

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Someone suggested checking on/off the Rudder Trim and Control Helper options multiple times in the menu to see if it worked after. It actually did work with the controls helper (presumably thats the option where you start with the controls at the top of the screen). But it didn't change the rudder trim. I start with pedals solidly left, and it is not in stable flight as suggested. I'm banking to the left due to heavy pedal input from the start. Trim reset fixes this. This was on Syria - Free flight.

 

LOL ok so some more testing right after the above, I did Syria weapons range. This time the game started me with the controls helper back on, and my pedals also off center while on the pad. I immediately torqued around and crashed while sitting on the pad. I saved the track. I clicked Fly Again. THIS time I started but I held my hand brake. Didn't need to though, because this time I started with the Controls thingy off, and my pedals were centered! WHAT lol. Ok, save track. Try again. The Controls helper thingy is BACK UP TOP and my pedals are depressed to the left again. I'm so confused. Here's the last track. It wouldn't let me post them all.

 

Edit: Went back to menu for a few minutes, then tried Syria - Weapons range again. I selected the ATGM hind. I held the brake lever while clicking out of the briefing menu. Controls are at the top, and my rudder pedals are still trimmed to the left but not nearly as far as other times. ?????

 

Edit 2: Went back to main menu, controls, removed my -15 curve on my pedals. Went back into Syria Weapons Range, ATGM Hind. Didn't hold any buttons or levers. Pedals aren't trimmed this time, controls helper windows are gone. Quit out, clicked fly again. ATGM. LOL PEDALS trimmed FULL to the right at spawn. No control helper windows at top. My game is haunted.

 

hindpedaltest 4.trk


Edited by Relic

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T16000M FCS | TWCS Throttle | MFG Crosswind.V2 Rudder Pedals

"Dialectic"

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I went into the game and was looking at my axis curves for my rudder. Almost every time I clicked on the "tune" for my rudder axis it had my rudder input wayyyyyy over to the left even though I wasnt doing this. Touching the pedals then restored the position. The game is setting my pedals off for some reason. 

Weird.jpg

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"Dialectic"

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After messing around on the Syria test firing range Instant action mission I have come around to this scientifically and empirically derived conclusion:

 

We all pretty much suck at flying the Hind, and have to re-learn how to handle this beast of a Helicopter.

 

I think the OP (solution post) said it all but here are a few more tips from a completely useless Helicopter pilot (me): 

 

1. I'm used to flying with minimal trimming, basically I trim for a certain flight regime and then don't trim again unless I really need to. This is NOT how it should be done in the Hind. Trim, all the time. The way that the YAP AP Channel works is that it tries to yaw for a certain trim. So even in turns, hold down the trim button and turn. Watch in amazement as the pedals do their thing .

 

2. If you want manual use of the pedals use the trim release button, if you notice that it's yawing strangely, use the trim release button, if you want to do complicated maneuvers, you guessed it, use the trim release button. Better yet, hold it down for that last one. 

 

If I think of something else I'll leave it here. Landing this bird is not easy, and it's not because of VRS. 


Edited by Lurker

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1 minute ago, Lurker said:

... Landing this bird is not easy, and it's not because of VRS. 

 

 

 

True.

 

But she also does VRS somewhat more easily than the flying greenhouse. 🤣

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Someone needs to do a proper tutorial youtube video on "How to fly the Hind". It can't come soon enough, I'm not talking about hover, take-off, Wags already did that. Just level flight, turns, and simple maneuvers. 

 

I am reminded of the time the F14 came out, and people didn't realize that you had to roll the aircraft with your pedals past a certain AoA. 🙂

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My rudder is trimmed even though trim rudder box is not checked.

 

So far the consistent workaround is to press trim reset. Of course this wrecks havoc in slow flight or hovering.

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On 6/17/2021 at 1:05 PM, kengou said:

Regarding not enough rudder authority to counter yaw - could this be an implementation (the first?) of LTE - Loss of Tail Rotor Effectiveness?

This is a very good question. I entered yesterday a state where I completely lost tail rotor authority and the hind was uncontrollably rotating, while being near a hover, in windy conditions. I had no clue how to get out of it, I ended up rotating slow enough to attempt landing, but with catastrophic result 😄

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1 hour ago, Whisper said:

This is a very good question. I entered yesterday a state where I completely lost tail rotor authority and the hind was uncontrollably rotating, while being near a hover, in windy conditions. I had no clue how to get out of it, I ended up rotating slow enough to attempt landing, but with catastrophic result 😄

 

If that happens again remove your feet from your physical pedals and check the position of your virtual rudder pedals. Are they stuck to one side? If so, is your Yaw AP on? If not, save track file and report it here please. It keeps getting reported sporadically but we need proof.

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33 minutes ago, Relic said:

 

If that happens again remove your feet from your physical pedals and check the position of your virtual rudder pedals. Are they stuck to one side? If so, is your Yaw AP on? If not, save track file and report it here please. It keeps getting reported sporadically but we need proof.

Yaw AP was off, I purposefully do not activate the yaw channel

But I also removed the spring from my MFGs so my rudder is not auto centering. I'll try to center the rudder and check the virtual input window


Edited by Whisper

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31 minutes ago, Whisper said:

Yaw AP was off, I purposefully do not activate the yaw channel

But I also removed the spring from my MFGs so my rudder is not auto centering. I'll try to center the rudder and check the virtual input window

 

Aaah, I have MFG's as well, never thought of unhooking the spring while flying helos.While flying the Huey I've always hated fighting the spring tension, it is fine for jets, but helos, 'ell no. Guess I have to try that trick, so thanks.

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3 minutes ago, IFS_Hrannar said:

Aaah, I have MFG's as well, never thought of unhooking the spring while flying helos.While flying the Huey I've always hated fighting the spring tension, it is fine for jets, but helos, 'ell no. Guess I have to try that trick, so thanks.

I also added their dampener addon, which adds to the stiffness when spring is removed, the thing may be too responsive without spring and without dampener

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Whisper of old OFP & C6 forums, now Kalbuth.

Specs : i7 6700K / MSI 1070 / 32G RAM / SSD / Rift S / Virpil MongooseT50 / Virpil T50 CM2 Throttle / MFG Crosswind.

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On 6/18/2021 at 10:24 AM, Lurker said:

Someone needs to do a proper tutorial youtube video on "How to fly the Hind". It can't come soon enough, I'm not talking about hover, take-off, Wags already did that. Just level flight, turns, and simple maneuvers. 

 

I am reminded of the time the F14 came out, and people didn't realize that you had to roll the aircraft with your pedals past a certain AoA. 🙂

agreed

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I also started a topic on this as I was finding the workings of the Yaw AP strange.

 

 

The Yaw AP mode works fine, the problem is when you want to turn it off. The last known setting of the AP channel is left fixed on the pedals and the only way to center the pedals is to do a trim re-set which also re-sets cyclic trim, as mentioned this can be dangerous if near the ground.

 

The other issue is when switching seats, if the AI does a pedal offset these will be left in when taking back over from the AI (even if Yaw AP is off) , again the only way to reset the pedals is to re-set trim.

 

A simple solution would be to have a separate way to cancel pedal trim, that is not tied to cyclic trim. i.e the double tap of trimmer instead of resetting all the trim just does pedals.

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On 6/20/2021 at 6:31 PM, nazradu said:

 

 

 After messing about with the Hind over the weekend I can't get it to behave as described in this video. It's really weird. Are you doing anything when exiting the turn? Are you hitting the trim reset button? Because if I don't do that the YAP AP channel will "sort of work" and most of the time will still fight me in after the turn making me wobble all over the place. 

Also, do you use the rudder trim? 

I am now firmly back in the camp of "bug" and not just pilot error, because no way, and I really mean no way can it work like this in the real chopper. Seriously, I can't believe that I have to reset trim after every single turn, which as clogger mentioned is potentially hugely dangerous, and makes for inherently unstable flight at best. 


Edited by Lurker
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9 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

 After messing about with the Hind over the weekend I can't get it to behave as described in this video. It's really weird. Are you doing anything when exiting the turn? Are you hitting the trim reset button? Because if I don't do that the YAP AP channel will "sort of work" and most of the time will still fight me in after the turn making me wobble all over the place. 

Also, do you use the rudder trim? 

I am now firmly back in the camp of "bug" and not just pilot error, because no way, and I really mean no way can it work like this in the real chopper. Seriously, I can't believe that I have to reset trim after every single turn, which as clogger mentioned is potentially hugely dangerous, and makes for inherently unstable flight at best. 

 

The turn in steps. Press and hold trimmer, initiate turn with rudder and hold it while turning (do not center while turning!), roll with cyclic and hold it, adjust turn rate with pitch. To exit the turn: Roll back to level and simultaniusly center rudder pedals, release trimmer button. Eventually correct roll and pitch, by press and hold trimmer find new cyclic position, release trimmer.


Edited by nazradu
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12 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

 After messing about with the Hind over the weekend I can't get it to behave as described in this video. It's really weird. Are you doing anything when exiting the turn? Are you hitting the trim reset button? Because if I don't do that the YAP AP channel will "sort of work" and most of the time will still fight me in after the turn making me wobble all over the place. 

Also, do you use the rudder trim? 

I am now firmly back in the camp of "bug" and not just pilot error, because no way, and I really mean no way can it work like this in the real chopper. Seriously, I can't believe that I have to reset trim after every single turn, which as clogger mentioned is potentially hugely dangerous, and makes for inherently unstable flight at best. 

 

 

Not sure what the guy in the vid is doing but here is how I fly.

 

I can fly with Yaw AP on or off, If I fly with it on I don't have to do anything special. In turns I coordinate the rudder with the cyclic. You have to give slow rudder inputs other wise you get the warning light on the dash about the dampener. I don't re-set the cyclic or hold the trim button ,  I pretty much only tap trim (others mileage may vary).

 

I do not have the helper rudder trimmer enabled in the special menu, I think this would cause further complications.

 

If you are doing lots of complicated big turns, then its better to leave it off. For gentle flying I leave the Yaw AP on. The Yaw AP also works very well in the approach to landing I have found.

 

On reading articles about the Hind, I believe it has micro switches in the pedals so when the pilot gives a rudder input it overrides the AP, it seems to me when you press a pedal it is doing this in game. You can also tap trim in level flight i.e let go of the cyclic move rudder to the direction you want and then tap trim and it should settle there if working with in the AP limits.

 

It is a mechanical system so sometimes it can get funky, which is why I would like to have a separate bind for centering the pedals (not sure how in the IRL Hind they do this)

 

My issue is when you turn of the AP or take over from the AI and the pedals are left in the offset position until you re set trim which also re sets cyclic trim (not ideal)

 

I have added a separate bind request for re setting pedals in the wish list area, I think this would help a lot, Pls give a like or comment on the topic to help it get noticed 🙂

 

 


Edited by Clogger
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On 6/22/2021 at 2:18 AM, Clogger said:

 

A simple solution would be to have a separate way to cancel pedal trim, that is not tied to cyclic trim. i.e the double tap of trimmer instead of resetting all the trim just does pedals.

 

Thanks for the tips. Will try and be more gentle with the rudder input in gentle turns, and alternatively just bind a key to turn off AP YAW if I'm doing combat maneuvers. Will definitely check out your thread as a rudder "AP reset" option seems like a great workaround that would probably eliminate 90% of our problems in this regard. Not sure if the devs will go for it though, they are usually adverse to adding any aids that aren't present in the real aircraft. 

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16 hours ago, nazradu said:

The turn in steps. Press and hold trimmer, initiate turn with rudder and hold it while turning (do not center while turning!), roll with cyclic and hold it, adjust turn rate with pitch. To exit the turn: Roll back to level and simultaniusly center rudder pedals, release trimmer button. Eventually correct roll and pitch, by press and hold trimmer find new cyclic position, release trimmer.

 

 

Thanks for this. Can you clarify a bit more please? So in the entire turn, you are holding down the trimmer button? Also do you use rudder trim on, in the special options?

 

Sorry if I'm being a pain, but in the Mi8 I could do turns all day and they were smooth and easy and looked great, but the Hind is killing me 🙂


Edited by Lurker

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6 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

Thanks for this. Can you clarify a bit more please? So in the entire turn, you are holding down the trimmer button? Also do you use rudder trim on, in the special options?

 

Sorry if I'm being a pain, but in the Mi8 I could do turns all day and they were smooth and easy and looked great, but the Hind is killing me 🙂

 

Don't worry and ask as much as you want 😉

Rudder trimmer is not in use for this module. I don't know if this is a thing irl, but I never use rudder trim options in no aircraft cause I dont like when the virtual axis is async with my physical pedal position.

For the trimmer itself. I made a vid on that topic too.

Unfortunatly there is no short yes or no answer in this, cause it depends on the situation. If I am cruising fast and do a long turn where I want to keep my IAS high I will press and hold, establish the bank and pitch angle for the turn, release trimmer, center the stick and let the chopper do the turn. When I want to exit the turn, press and hold the trimmer get the chopper straight, release trimmer, center the joystick. If I do a sharp and short maneuver I will hold the trimmer for the entire maneuver. And on those very small corrections I will push the stick tab the trimmer and center. You can see that in the beginning of the video when I establish the hover.

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16 hours ago, nazradu said:

Don't worry and ask as much as you want 😉

Rudder trimmer is not in use for this module. I don't know if this is a thing irl, but I never use rudder trim options in no aircraft cause I dont like when the virtual axis is async with my physical pedal position.

For the trimmer itself. I made a vid on that topic too.

Unfortunatly there is no short yes or no answer in this, cause it depends on the situation. If I am cruising fast and do a long turn where I want to keep my IAS high I will press and hold, establish the bank and pitch angle for the turn, release trimmer, center the stick and let the chopper do the turn. When I want to exit the turn, press and hold the trimmer get the chopper straight, release trimmer, center the joystick. If I do a sharp and short maneuver I will hold the trimmer for the entire maneuver. And on those very small corrections I will push the stick tab the trimmer and center. You can see that in the beginning of the video when I establish the hover.

 

@nazradu my helicopter behaves nothing like this when I try to do a turn. Can you please explain what you are doing with the pedals once you initiate the turn and hit TRIM in this last video at about the 9 minute mark? 

I think that there might be a bug with the default trimmer settings.

 

You see I have a FFB joystick, which is used differently. I press and HOLD the trimmer button and then RELEASE it when I have it in the position I want it to be in. I'm trying to figure out whether this is the reason why the YAW AP channel (and maybe even the other channels) are not correcting the flight path properly, because I use the default trimmer settings in the special tab, while you use setting that trims when you press the button, and not when you release it. 


Edited by Lurker

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9 hours ago, Lurker said:

 

@nazradu my helicopter behaves nothing like this when I try to do a turn. Can you please explain what you are doing with the pedals once you initiate the turn and hit TRIM in this last video at about the 9 minute mark? 

I think that there might be a bug with the default trimmer settings.

 

You see I have a FFB joystick, which is used differently. I press and HOLD the trimmer button and then RELEASE it when I have it in the position I want it to be in. I'm trying to figure out whether this is the reason why the YAW AP channel (and maybe even the other channels) are not correcting the flight path properly, because I use the default trimmer settings in the special tab, while you use setting that trims when you press the button, and not when you release it. 

 

When I do a turn, I stay on the pedals dir the entire turn. This is necessary to make the yaw ap catch up with the actual change in direction. The trimmer does not realy affect the AP channels. They are there to smoth out and keep a steady attitude. All the trimmer does is keep your stick at the position it has when you press and release it.

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On 6/25/2021 at 1:54 PM, nazradu said:

When I do a turn, I stay on the pedals dir the entire turn. This is necessary to make the yaw ap catch up with the actual change in direction. The trimmer does not realy affect the AP channels. They are there to smoth out and keep a steady attitude. All the trimmer does is keep your stick at the position it has when you press and release it.

 

Then how come I can release my trim... fly around for a few minutes without ever trimming... release trim again and the helicopter rolls hard and pitches up even though im maintaining cyclic position?? I think the SAS channels and the Trim are linked.


Edited by tornadotowel
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26 minutes ago, tornadotowel said:

 

 

Then how come I can release my trim... fly around for a few minutes without ever trimming... release trim again and the helicopter rolls hard and pitches up even though im maintaining cyclic position?? I think the SAS channels and the Trim are linked.

 

Only pitch and roll. At least from what I have observed.

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