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AIM-120s not tracking after launch while in STT mode


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In this video I launched two AIM-120s and they don't seem to track at all despite being in STT Tracking mode.  Am I doing something wrong.  These shots were meant to be more defensive to allow me to get closer and causing the enemy to have to evade and I realize not in best missile range.

 

Thanks for any feedback.

 

 

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Hi, 

 

the first shorts are taking at long range and then you reduce your altitude into the thicker denser air, on one of your shots it is LOST. I dont think there is a bug here but if you have a track replay please attach it so we can play it back. 

 

thanks

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3 hours ago, jwflowersii said:

In this video I launched two AIM-120s and they don't seem to track at all despite being in STT Tracking mode.  Am I doing something wrong.  These shots were meant to be more defensive to allow me to get closer and causing the enemy to have to evade and I realize not in best missile range.

 

Thanks for any feedback.

 

 

As BN said there is most likely no bug. What I do observe, though is that you fired all 3 shots completely out of usable parameters against a maneuvring target. The first two shots were both fired below Raero but way above Rmax. In this case the target only needs to do a tiny bit of a turn to defend and both shots are trashed. Your third shot was between Rmax and Rne and from very low level at 11nm distance against a maneuvering target which leads to exactly the same situation as described above. Your target had zero problems defending all your shots. I suggest you should have another look at the manual and really learn the symbology which is presented to you. Also, there are very good Youtube channels that show you how to best employ the AIM-120C so that you can make the most of your shots. Just a little more training and you get the hang of it.

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In this video I launched two AIM-120s and they don't seem to track at all despite being in STT Tracking mode.  Am I doing something wrong.  These shots were meant to be more defensive to allow me to get closer and causing the enemy to have to evade and I realize not in best missile range.
 
Thanks for any feedback.
 
 
Can you please also show the Tacview for the missiles? Like that, we can see whether they're guiding or not.
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Yup, post the tacview track file, so people can see what your missiles actually did.

I'm betting that all your amraams were tracking, problem is that you launched them from way too far. 
Amraams aren't phoenixes, don't expect crazy range from them. 

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7 hours ago, jwflowersii said:

In this video I launched two AIM-120s and they don't seem to track at all despite being in STT Tracking mode.  Am I doing something wrong.  These shots were meant to be more defensive to allow me to get closer and causing the enemy to have to evade and I realize not in best missile range.

 

You have sort of answered your own question here and others have pointed out the same.   Shooting so far out of range isn't useful - the tactic of keeping your target under pressure is fine, but your opponent is simply much better versed and faster at executing the fight that you are.   Also the fact that you turned back into a missile shot at less than 15nm range suggests that you may either have had your fangs hanging or some misconception about how missile avoidance is performed.  Drop into the notch, don't waffle around hoping the missile won't hit.

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7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

 

the first shorts are taking at long range and then you reduce your altitude into the thicker denser air, on one of your shots it is LOST. I dont think there is a bug here but if you have a track replay please attach it so we can play it back. 

 

thanks

 

Here you go.  Regardless of the distance the missile should be guiding when being fed information from an STT lock.  I didn't lose lock on target.  Both missiles went dumb pretty early on.

AIM120NotTracking.trk

3 hours ago, Tango3B said:

As BN said there is most likely no bug. What I do observe, though is that you fired all 3 shots completely out of usable parameters against a maneuvring target. The first two shots were both fired below Raero but way above Rmax. In this case the target only needs to do a tiny bit of a turn to defend and both shots are trashed. Your third shot was between Rmax and Rne and from very low level at 11nm distance against a maneuvering target which leads to exactly the same situation as described above. Your target had zero problems defending all your shots. I suggest you should have another look at the manual and really learn the symbology which is presented to you. Also, there are very good Youtube channels that show you how to best employ the AIM-120C so that you can make the most of your shots. Just a little more training and you get the hang of it.

 

The missiles should be fed information from jet to steer at least to target.  It seems they did not even track target from jet STT lock, they just went dumb. 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

You have sort of answered your own question here and others have pointed out the same.   Shooting so far out of range isn't useful - the tactic of keeping your target under pressure is fine, but your opponent is simply much better versed and faster at executing the fight that you are.   Also the fact that you turned back into a missile shot at less than 15nm range suggests that you may either have had your fangs hanging or some misconception about how missile avoidance is performed.  Drop into the notch, don't waffle around hoping the missile won't hit.

 

It is useful and it's called a defensive shot, to keep him busy.  He's still fly into me and would be in range.  The issue here isn't the tactics.  The missile goes lost right after launch. Why?  That's the issue.  

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7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi, 

 

the first shorts are taking at long range and then you reduce your altitude into the thicker denser air, on one of your shots it is LOST. I dont think there is a bug here but if you have a track replay please attach it so we can play it back. 

 

thanks

 

 

Both shots were lost at launch.  That is the issue.  Why?  I never lost STT lock, why do they go lost off the rails.  If it's working the way it's intended why would it lose lock at launch.  I even paused when I shot the first one.  Shouldn't STT lose lock at that point as well, I'm just confused why the first two missiles go lost off the rails.  

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Posted (edited)

1:25 and 1:48 radar went MEM mode momentally due to hard roll that radar could not keep up and AMRAAM lost midcourse guidance. 

Avoid hard maneuver with target near gimbal limit or TWS is better option for guiding AMRAAM right now in DCS.


Edited by opps
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Posted (edited)

@jwflowersii
 
After watching your track, looks like the issue might be related to the fact that your first two amraams were fired beyond the calculated max range. 

I don't know whether this is expected behavior,  but I do know that STT locking a bandit at 30nm isn't a good idea (unless he's chasing a friendly and you want to distract him).
 
Next time wait until the bandit gets within max range, at least, and don't use STT lock from so far away. 

(Hell, with good DL picture, I wouldn't even turn on the radar until the bandit were within 40nm, or within 10nm in the absence of his nails 😅)

EDIT: What @opps suggested might explain it as well.  


Edited by Hardcard
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5 minutes ago, Hardcard said:

@jwflowersii
 
After watching your track, looks like the issue might be related to the fact that your first two amraams were fired beyond the calculated max range. 

I don't know whether this is expected behavior,  but I do know that STT locking a bandit at 30nm isn't a good idea (unless he's chasing a friendly and you want to distract him).
 
Next time wait until the bandit gets within max range, at least, and don't use STT lock from so far away.

EDIT: What @opps suggested might explain it as well.  

 

 

No, this is a valid tactic and worked in the past when missiles actually tracked an aircraft.  I've switched to using STT due to other issues with TWS.   

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44 minutes ago, opps said:

1:25 and 1:48 radar went MEM mode momentally due to hard roll that radar could not keep up and AMRAAM lost midcourse guidance. 

Avoid hard maneuver with target near gimbal limit or TWS is better option for guiding AMRAAM right now in DCS.

 

This is more in line with what I was thinking, but I'm not sure if that's realistic behavior or not.  Are there limits to maneuvering when firing a missile.  If that's the case, I can adjust.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, jwflowersii said:

It is useful and it's called a defensive shot, to keep him busy.  He's still fly into me and would be in range.  The issue here isn't the tactics.  The missile goes lost right after launch. Why?  That's the issue.  

 

Your tactics are an issue but they're separate and irrelevant to this thread, so I'll drop that.

 

The missile is indeed losing track you're right (according to the tacview), it's a bug and AFAIK it's already reported.  You've provided the track so hopefully ED will be able to fix this up.


Edited by GGTharos

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@jwflowersii

Your third missile tracked the bandit and the first two didn't, that's the fact we have on the table right now.


The explanation must be found in the variables that changed between launches. 

Could be max range violation, loss of DL guidance before pitbull or something else. 

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Regardless of range to target, the missile should be fed updated info from the Hornet.  It shouldn't just go dumb after 5 seconds when it has 34 secs to active.  That's the issue.  My concern is the Lost message right after launch.  That's what I'm trying to figure out here.

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Firing beyond what the jet tells you is RMax is absolutely not an issue. Its a commonplace occurrence and will be until ED update the DLZ for the new amraam kinematics.

 

OP is spot on, those missiles didn't appear to be tracking despite a sustained STT and no LOST indication (outside of the initial 2 second LOST flash that happens at launch, another bug). I've seen similar things happen myself, but often accompanied by a LOST indication.

 

I wonder whether the bug isnt the missiles failing to track, but the HUD failing to indicate a LOST missile?

 

As a side note, no idea what you guys are digging into OPs mechanics about. I like what I'm seeing, nice aggression into the crank. Shooting when you did is fine.

2 minutes ago, jwflowersii said:

Regardless of range to target, the missile should be fed updated info from the Hornet.  It shouldn't just go dumb after 5 seconds when it has 34 secs to active.  That's the issue.  My concern is the Lost message right after launch.  That's what I'm trying to figure out here.

LOST after launch is a bug that afaik is triggered by firing beyond what the outdated DLZ say is good. Its not preclusive to missile tracking, as I've seen both outcomes with a LOST cue.

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Prior to the recent changes to AIM-120 missile and issues with F18 radar losing track, this tactic worked wonderfully.  It may not hit the target but it messes up their timelines and allows me a chance to get closer. I had a very high success rate and very few deaths when the missile tracked.  

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Just now, jwflowersii said:

Prior to the recent changes to AIM-120 missile and issues with F18 radar losing track, this tactic worked wonderfully.  It may not hit the target but it messes up their timelines and allows me a chance to get closer. I had a very high success rate and very few deaths when the missile tracked.  

Its almost like a Direct reattack banzai from Skate. It's sound, dont be discouraged. 

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6 minutes ago, Swiftwin9s said:

Its almost like a Direct reattack banzai from Skate. It's sound, dont be discouraged. 

 

Our squadron practices these procedures and this is actually from one of our trainings.  We're trying to develop new tactics based on the current situation with the 18 radar and missile mechanics.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Swiftwin9s said:

those missiles didn't appear to be tracking despite a sustained STT and no LOST indication (outside of the initial 2 second LOST flash that happens at launch, another bug). 

 

I wonder whether the bug isnt the missiles failing to track, but the HUD failing to indicate a LOST missile?


Watch the video again (or better yet, replay the track. It'll allow you to see the tiny radar queues on DDI).  

First two amraams got the LOST queue both at launch and during midcourse guidance (watch the radar page on the right DDI, at the bottom of the STT line you'll see "LOST" flashing briefly during midcourse guidance). 

I'm not gonna say that the radar isn't bugged (it's the hornet, after all 😅), just considering alternatives.

Also, remember that whatever the hornet was capable of doing before 2.7, doesn't necessarily apply now, with the new radar implementation, so I wouldn't dwell in the past.


Edited by Hardcard
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1 hour ago, Hardcard said:


Watch the video again (or better yet, replay the track. It'll allow you to see the tiny radar queues on DDI).  

First two amraams got the LOST queue both at launch and during midcourse guidance (watch the radar page on the right DDI, at the bottom of the STT line you'll see "LOST" flashing briefly during midcourse guidance). 

I'm not gonna say that the radar isn't bugged (it's the hornet, after all 😅), just considering alternatives.

Also, remember that whatever the hornet was capable of doing before 2.7, doesn't necessarily apply now, with the new radar implementation, so I wouldn't dwell in the past.

 

Yeah Im well aware, I'm dwelling in the 3 days ago

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LOST flashing isn't really a bug per-se, it's supposed to flash if you fire outside of RMAX , the bug is that the computer thinks it's RMAX in the first place. (Launch at 40K M1.0 can easily go 40nm arriving on target at ~Mach 2 but the computer will show this as beyond RMAX)

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3 hours ago, jwflowersii said:

LOST means it lost communications, it has nothing to do with RMAX.

The opposite. The jet doesn't even know if it's lost communications with the AMRAAM since it's a one way datalink anyway.

 

LOST has to do with the missile being kinematically lost and has everything to do with Rmax. It is however useless in DCS due to the incorrect implementation. It is not freezing parameters at launch but rather indicating Lost as a function of the current kinematics between the jet and the target, not the missile in-flight and the target. In other words it's providing cuing for the missile on the rail.

 

Furthermore LOST should only be a quick flash. After a few seconds the straight line (SL) counter should be displayed for the missile.

 

Totally ignore the Lost cue right now, because it is not representative at all of whether the missile in flight has been lost.


Edited by Jak525
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