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Mi-24 Hind vs Black Shark


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Sorry if this has already started - I didn't see anything comparing the two and was interested in a discussion as to the difference between the two.

 

From what I can tell ( and I could be wrong) but to get the topic started:

 

Black Shark

 

  • Completed helicopter module
  • More stable flight (coaxial rotors)
  • Electronic Flight Aids, autopilot, autohover
  • More modern weapon & nav systems
  • Movable Turret
  • Ejection seat 
  • Pilot controls flight + all weapons

 

 

Mi-24 Hind

 

  • Early Release (Currently pre-order)
  • More conventional flight model
  • Multi-crew
  • Fixed Turret
  • Limited weapons for pilot (?)
  • Capable of carrying Troops

 

Similarities

 

  • Armored
  • Fastest Helicopters in DCS

 

 

What other pro's / con's can you see for each model. (Could be a helpful discussion for those that can only afford a single helicopter, and/or are interested in what the Hind can offer in addition to the BS if they already have it).

 

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Sorry if this has already started - I didn't see anything comparing the two and was interested in a discussion as to the difference between the two.
 
From what I can tell ( and I could be wrong) but to get the topic started:
 
Black Shark
 
  • Completed helicopter module
  • More stable flight (coaxial rotors)
  • Electronic Flight Aids, autopilot, autohover
  • More modern weapon & nav systems
  • Movable Turret
  • Ejection seat 
  • Pilot controls flight + all weapons
 
 
Mi-24 Hind
 
  • Early Release (Currently pre-order)
  • More conventional flight model
  • Multi-crew
  • Fixed Turret
  • Limited weapons for pilot (?)
  • Capable of carrying Troops
 
Similarities
 
  • Armored
  • Fastest Helicopters in DCS
 
 
What other pro's / con's can you see for each model. (Could be a helpful discussion for those that can only afford a single helicopter, and/or are interested in what the Hind can offer in addition to the BS if they already have it).
 

I think of the mi-24 as the Russian equivalent to the Huey gunship, and the ka-50 as their answer to the Apache. It’s not equal, but the jobs are roughly equivalent.


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Mi-24P has as well the Auto Hover capability. The pilot uses rockets and gun but can't use the guided missiles, so yes for the "limited weapons".

 

Even when the KA-50 has a more modern (digital) navigation system, I would say that it is not so much better than what a Mi-24P has. The lack of GPS doesn't make Mi-24 worse as you still have excellent doppler navigation system and problem really comes in very low visibility where you can't see past 100 meters or so. As where you need to play with the navigation system in KA-50 to create new waypoints or get targets location stored, in Mi-24 you can just scribble it on the paper map in a box and you know where you are and where you need to fly. 

 

We do not have gusts simulated in mountains, ridges and so a like. What makes every other conventional helicopter as safe and easy to fly in such scenarios compared to KA-50. Such wind simulation would make KA-50 superior for flight operations as you are far more stable and have better controllability.

 

The KA-50 movable gun is much better in close ranges as you can use it with HMS to aim moving targets by just keeping your crosshair on the target and shoot same time.

And at long range the KA-50 wins as you can observe and search targets easily with 7/23x Shkval, compared to 3/10x optical gunner sight.

 

The KA-50 has since the launch been missing features, some important ones. Like Shkval filters and tracking modes. Non-existing contrast locking capability and Vikhr has been very nerfed against the air targets. So hopefully we get those fixed by implementing those.

 

I have got so use to KA-50 single seat cockpit that it is very easy to perform all the tasks alone. Main gripe being that when need to put head down for inputting something to PVI-800 etc you don't have time to look outside so much. So going for a dual-cockpit will be little annoying, but as well refreshing.

In a Mi-8 experience the pilot-commander does so much at the left seat that right seat is just assisting at that moment with a radio or with navigation (that we don't have, the AI co-pilot is not telling navigation corrections or selecting weapons for you, why you need to fly with the humans if you want all fun out.

 

In Mi-24 you have all that split to two separate cockpits, so instead just working more as a team, you are now working even more alone as two separate people (connected with ICS). And that makes KA-50 maybe superior to Mi-24 as you don't need to play around. 

 

The huge benefit with KA-50 is when you fly in multiplayer as a group of hunters. In KA-50 you can split and separate as you see everyone's location on ABRIS and you can share the targeting data between players. In Mi-24 you can't do that than over radio. So you need to stick together more and just fly in formation, as the cooperation between Mi-24's isn't so great. 

 

I think for the single player the Mi-24 vs KA-50 there is not so much difference, but for multiplayer where you have multiple helicopters then the KA-50 wins by big.

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the ka-50 was an experiment in having a single pilot in an attack helicopter.

 

every other one has pilot and gunner.

 

As the Russian military has bought far more attack helicopters with 2 crew. you can assume the experiment failed.

even the ka-52 (2 man) sees more service in Russian service than the ka-50.

 

you don't go one pilot. you go no pilots (if drones have taught us anything)

the mi-24 is an older gunship that used speed instead of stealth as its defence.

just like the original huey gunship and huey cobra.

 

with advances in SAM technology, speed is no longer considered a defence.

you need to get low and hover behind stuff.

which is where the apache and mi-28 come into the picture.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Quadg said:

the ka-50 was an experiment in having a single pilot in an attack helicopter.

 

every other one has pilot and gunner.

 

As the Russian military has bought far more attack helicopters with 2 crew. you can assume the experiment failed.

even the ka-52 (2 man) sees more service in Russian service than the ka-50.

 

The experiment didn't fail, in contrary It was success.

 

The problem was that foreign sales didn't succeed because different nations stuck to the idea that every combat helicopter requires two pilots. So KAMOV couldn't participate to competitions, why the KA-50-2 was born.

 

From the start the KA-50 was designed to be the main combat helicopter, and one KA-52 was to be the group commander's aircraft, where he was to sit right of it pilot and command the attack group. 

 

The international sales just required two seaters and when you have one seater you can't enter the trials. The KA-52 was only that has been successful in the export sales (Egypt).

The Russia Minister of Defense signed the order to produce and buy the KA-50's but the funding was delayed couple times and eventually cancelled as the Mi-28 was chosen for some reason.  That was the end of the KA-50 project, but the KA-52 kept going.

 

In the combat and trials the pilots praised the KA-50 simple operation and capability to perform the duties of the two pilots because all the automation. And anyone can test it in the DCS to find out it is true (again, it requires one has the gaming setup made to replicate the real thing as close as possible, so throttle and joystick on table and using keyboard/mouse doesn't really show it). 

 

 

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4 hours ago, ricktoberfest said:


I think of the mi-24 as the Russian equivalent to the Huey gunship, and the ka-50 as their answer to the Apache. It’s not equal, but the jobs are roughly equivalent.


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Interesting. I could get more excited about it if I thought that was the case. But after flying the Mi-8 compared to the UH-1, I found that the Mi-8 was vastly different with handling and more of a 'bus' - which I expect the hind will be similar to as well. It may be capable of similar scenario's to the Huey - but I just found the Huey far more nimble to be able to throw around. 

 

Trust me - a fast, armored and more weapon equipped Huey with similar handling characteristics otherwise would be my dream. 😉

4 hours ago, Fri13 said:

Mi-24P has as well the Auto Hover capability. The pilot uses rockets and gun but can't use the guided missiles, so yes for the "limited weapons".

 

Even when the KA-50 has a more modern (digital) navigation system, I would say that it is not so much better than what a Mi-24P has. The lack of GPS doesn't make Mi-24 worse as you still have excellent doppler navigation system and problem really comes in very low visibility where you can't see past 100 meters or so. As where you need to play with the navigation system in KA-50 to create new waypoints or get targets location stored, in Mi-24 you can just scribble it on the paper map in a box and you know where you are and where you need to fly. 

 

We do not have gusts simulated in mountains, ridges and so a like. What makes every other conventional helicopter as safe and easy to fly in such scenarios compared to KA-50. Such wind simulation would make KA-50 superior for flight operations as you are far more stable and have better controllability.

 

The KA-50 movable gun is much better in close ranges as you can use it with HMS to aim moving targets by just keeping your crosshair on the target and shoot same time.

And at long range the KA-50 wins as you can observe and search targets easily with 7/23x Shkval, compared to 3/10x optical gunner sight.

 

The KA-50 has since the launch been missing features, some important ones. Like Shkval filters and tracking modes. Non-existing contrast locking capability and Vikhr has been very nerfed against the air targets. So hopefully we get those fixed by implementing those.

 

I have got so use to KA-50 single seat cockpit that it is very easy to perform all the tasks alone. Main gripe being that when need to put head down for inputting something to PVI-800 etc you don't have time to look outside so much. So going for a dual-cockpit will be little annoying, but as well refreshing.

In a Mi-8 experience the pilot-commander does so much at the left seat that right seat is just assisting at that moment with a radio or with navigation (that we don't have, the AI co-pilot is not telling navigation corrections or selecting weapons for you, why you need to fly with the humans if you want all fun out.

 

In Mi-24 you have all that split to two separate cockpits, so instead just working more as a team, you are now working even more alone as two separate people (connected with ICS). And that makes KA-50 maybe superior to Mi-24 as you don't need to play around. 

 

The huge benefit with KA-50 is when you fly in multiplayer as a group of hunters. In KA-50 you can split and separate as you see everyone's location on ABRIS and you can share the targeting data between players. In Mi-24 you can't do that than over radio. So you need to stick together more and just fly in formation, as the cooperation between Mi-24's isn't so great. 

 

I think for the single player the Mi-24 vs KA-50 there is not so much difference, but for multiplayer where you have multiple helicopters then the KA-50 wins by big.

 

I wasn't aware the Hind had autohover. (I need to pay more attention!). 

 

Re your other points - it will be interesting to see how it works out at release. Will also be interesting to see how usable it is in multiplayer servers at release. 

 

Still toying with whether I should get it, or just wait and see what the 64D brings to the table. Already got too many modules that I've purchased and don't fly. 😄

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4 часа назад, Fri13 сказал:

And at long range the KA-50 wins as you can observe and search targets easily with 7/23x Shkval, compared to 3/10x optical gunner sight.

^this one

+1 !

 

Shkval is a nice relatively modern daylight electro-optical stabilized targeting system comparing to a brute tank sight of the hind, which should be a complete pain at long range target acquisition 

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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1 hour ago, ZHeN said:

^this one

+1 !

 

Shkval is a nice relatively modern daylight electro-optical stabilized targeting system comparing to a brute tank sight of the hind, which should be a complete pain at long range target acquisition 

 

People should try 10x binoculars (even 8x works for it as difference is very small) and think about how easy it is to find something with them. 

 

Even when Mi-24P sight is stabilized by +/- 60 degree azimuth and roll, and similarly whole vertical range, the optical becomes challenging at lower light or long ranges as you can't adjust the brightness and contrast.

But colors help a lot compared to B/W CRT TV.

 

In reality visually spotting military vehicles is very challenging. One can see a car driving on a road or highway from kilometers distance without problems, but moving green vehicle on green grass becomes such that you might spot it at 1-1.5 km at best. Even when you know where to look, it easily is 500 meters or under where you spot such vehicle at open (not a green vehicle middle in a yellow crop field) if starionary.

 

Then start to camouflage vehicle, you park it next to bush or trees and you never spot it from the air.

You can even walk in a field and literally hit your head on a parked vehicle as you thought you get past few trees and suddenly on your face is a tank.

And it doesn't help to wear NVG or Thermals as you don't see it with them.

 

That doesn't happen in DCS. And people would get angry if realistic ground units camouflaging would be implemented as their targeting pods and visual spotting would become almost impossible unless ground vehicles are required to move across open areas revealing their position.

 

Now think it with the attack helicopters, you don't know where vehicles are, you know the general area where enemy troops are marked to be. So you attack by saturating the area with rockets, and your wingman will fly as well in formation with you and fire it's rockets just same time as you for generic area saturation.

 

So you should be in Mi-24P in DCS attacking just "that forest edge" and hoping to get the hits there and suppressed enough so your ground units can attack with minimal risks.

 

Rockets would be the main weapon as with missiles you don't do so much and cannon is almost useless as well as you don't have such targets to engage with it.

Then when enemy is on the move, that is when missiles and gun becomes more useful to get the couple vehicles out.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

The true difference is Ka-50 was, depending on variant, basically a prototype or a low serie production due to fall of the Soviets = lack of resources. 

 

Mi-24 was a helicopter build in, literally, thousands by the Soviets and used in many real life wars since 1980s. One of most important and most iconic Soviet aircrafts.


Edited by bies
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This isn't entirely a meaningful comparison, because if we have to compare apples to apples, the helicopter that came about a couple of decades later will be better in just about anything, suprise surprise :).

 

But Mi-24 is just too iconic. It was the "Soviet gunship", a symbol of Cold War. Also if you're inclined towards historical or current plausible scenarios, it has been operating for decades now, and the variant we are getting is pretty decently capable of representing entirety of that period more or less.

 

One clear difference is, Mi-24 has an RWR, even if an older generation one. Ka-50 has a LWR instead to warn of lasers ranging you, and Blackshark 3 update will have a MAWS to warn you of missile launches, but still no RWR. So in a way they will complement each other in a mixed flight.

 

That aside, if we compare them, Mi-24 may *theoretically* bring about a little more boom per sortie if the target area demands less in the way of precision long range missile hits and more in the way of as many rockets as possible. But that is very case dependent, and even then probably won't hold much water because Ka-50's semi flexible and highl accurate gun and 12 missiles will end up yielding more kills more often.

 

Mi-24's advantage is more in "flavor" so to say. It is a helicopter in the classical sense, as opposed to a coaxial rotor one without tail rotor like the Ka-50 is. It also has a lot less in the way of automated/assisted flight characteristics. The cockpit, navigation and targeting systems, are all much more analogue and old school, which many people enjoy more in DCS, myself included.

 

Finally, it kinda-sorta has some transport capability as well, unlike the Kamov.

 

Tactically speaking, one thing Mi-24 will suit slightly better will be tossing a huge load of rockets from a decent distance, turn back, and have some missiles ready still, or only toss half your rockets, and have some ready to do that again if need be. This can suit better to a scenario where you can't hang around searching for targets and guiding missiles from from for long, and the target is an area target with mostly soft targets. Ka-50 can still do that of course, and in most cases better at that, but it will either have to get half the rockets, or leave its missiles at home. But that is really pushing it.

 

Most of us want Hind because it is Hind, for nothing else 🙂

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Posted (edited)

As everyone knows, the HINDS's most important reason for coming to DCS is so that bandana-clad, long-haired Huey pilots can kill it with bow and arrows while curling their upper lip menacingly (even if that particular HIND turns our to be disguised Puma). 


Edited by cfrag
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Funny to read that apparently some people here base their DCS module choice on aircraft/helicopter capabilities.

 

I've never checked that before buying any of my modules. I just bought those that made/make my blood flow faster 😛 

 

(well.. thinking of this, maybe I'm just the only one basing his purchases on this "feeling")

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Posted (edited)

No, that is how I buy modules as well. Best capabilities really don't matter - just what interests me.

 

In the case of the Hind, I have the Mi-8 (on sale, impulse buy) and really warmed up to it; figure the Hind will be more of the same but bigger boom-boom.

 

I'm not really interested in the Apache. But am interested in the Kiowa when it comes.

 

Need this kind of livery for the Hind:

 

 

LAAT-1024.jpg


Edited by reece146
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On 6/8/2021 at 5:58 AM, Dangerzone said:

 

 

I own the BlackShark and enjoy it, but I can't get used to the coaxial rotor - I simply don't like the way it makes the aircraft look, so classic design of the Hind is on a pros side for me.

Another one is also the fact that Mi-24 is real (production) and iconic.

 

If I was to name one of the differences, I think it will be a different combat dynamic in Mi-24, with more high speed attack runs vs. hover kills I do in Ka-50.

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29 minutes ago, reece146 said:

Need this kind of livery for the Hind:

Or this one:
latest?cb=20071007220215

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