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ATFLIR takes designation priority from RDR, without being commanded to


Harker
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2.7.1.7139 Open Beta. Track attached.
 
There appears to be some error(s) on which sensor should control the A/G designation and how.
 

  1. Lock a ship with the SCS, with A/G radar in SEA mode. The radar will actively track the ship and a designation will be created (RDR is displayed on the HUD). The ATFLIR is automatically slaved to the designation in INR mode. CORRECT
     
  2. Switch TDC priority to the FLIR page. The radar stops tracking and the designation is now controlled by the FLIR, although the TDC was not depressed on the FLIR page and the mode is not changed from INR. WRONG, the radar should continue to track the target and the designation should be controlled by it, since the FLIR was not commanded to designate (RDR should still be displayed on the HUD).
     
  3. Assign TDC priority back to the RDR ATTK page. It is no longer possible to command the radar to track, with the SCS. Depressing and releasing the SCS towards the RDR ATTK page will flash the display, but it'll not be commanded to track. WRONG, if the radar is commanded to track, it should track and the designation should be controlled by it (RDR should appear on the HUD). The FLIR should, in all cases, be slaved to the new designation.
     
  4. With the FLIR in AUTO track mode, it is possible to move the designation via the RDR ATTK page, with TDC Depress+TDC Slew, but upon assigning TDC priority to the FLIR page, it snaps back to the tracked target. WRONG, the designation should be created on the new point, with the FLIR exiting AUTO and slewing to the new designation.
FA-18C_ATFLIR_AUTO_always takes des priority_plus AUTO offset cursor continous des.trk



Edited by Harker
Edited for clarity and correct behavior reference, last paragraph
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Hi Harker, 

 

before I go to the team and tell them it could be wrong, what are your sources or evidence? Its a question they will ask me. 

 

thanks

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9 minutes ago, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

746

 

whats this?

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ok

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7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

before I go to the team and tell them it could be wrong, what are your sources or evidence? Its a question they will ask me. 

Appreciate your interest, BN. Guess we need advice from a Hornet pilot or technician. I would point out that logic SHOULD dictate that moving SOI from AG radar to slaved TGP would not cause the TGP to lose track. Radar losing track (due to gimbal limits) when TGP has a slaved target should not cause TGP to lose track. When switching SOI from TGP to AGM-65F the seeker does NOT lose track. Perhaps some other mechanism we are not aware of applies. My .02 USD.

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7 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Hi Harker, 

 

before I go to the team and tell them it could be wrong, what are your sources or evidence? Its a question they will ask me. 

 

thanks

This is a fundamental principle of the Hornet avionics, I'm sure the devs will understand.

 

When a sensor is in track, it's driving the designation with its data. E.g. FLIR in Autotrack or Scene track, Radar in FTT (TRACK), LST in track. If a stabilized designation has merely been created out there via the Radar format in search or the FLIR format in regular pointed mode (not Scene or Autotrack), then it's not tracking and the designation isn't tied to any one single sensor.

 

This is the reason you see RDR or FLIR etc in the HUD when in track but not if for example you simply make a designation on the Radar format in MAP mode.

 

If the Radar is in track the FLIR should be following the designation LOS that is driven by the Radar. If the FLIR is commanded to track then the Radar exits track and the designation is now driven by the FLIR.

 

Think of it as a soccer ball. Anyone can kick it around (no sensors tracking) until someone picks it up (sensor goes into track). At that point it's tied to that persons until someone else grabs it instead.

 

 @Mo410 can corroborate.

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Pretty much what @Jak525says. One sensor drives the designation, until another one is commanded to, by positive action (TDC Depress, SCS etc).

 

  1. Simply moving the TDC priority around shouldn't do anything.
  2. If another sensor is commanded to designate via TDC Depress (for ground designation) or the SCS (for sensor tracking), all other sensors should slave to the latest designation and the latest sensor is now driving the designation.

It's only logical and the current behavior (FLIR randomly driving the designation without positive action and the radar being unable to regain designation control) is not documented anywhere and is illogical.

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17 minutes ago, IkarusC42B Pilot said:

Are you telling me that even you dont have the 746?

 

C'mon Captain

 

I don't see you providing any source information either, so I don't think your point has any relevance here. All throughout the Hornet's development the TGT designation has been action-driven. To my mind simply assigning the TDC to any sensor shouldn't cancel the current designation. If ED has documentation that says otherwise I'll accept it, but for the moment I trust @Jak525 's post.

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5 minutes ago, Tholozor said:

I don't see you providing any source information either, so I don't think your point has any relevance here. All throughout the Hornet's development the TGT designation has been action-driven. To my mind simply assigning the TDC to any sensor shouldn't cancel the current designation. If ED has documentation that says otherwise I'll accept it, but for the moment I trust @Jak525 's post.

🤦‍♂️ thats because you're completly unware of the context and the referances i made. The guy knows Exactly what im reffering to.

 

 

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I tried switching back to radar track again from either pod.

 

Regardless of the FLIR mode, lock or no lock on target, after putting SOI on the radar all we have to do is press TDC once anywhere on the radar display then move the bracket on target and bump SCS. Works every time.  I don't think this is correct mech but... works for now.

 

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Are you telling me that even you dont have the 746?
 
C'mon Captain Jack
I have access to the 746 and the 742, but what we're talking about isn't specific to the ATFLIR's or the radar's operation. It's about the general logic of sensors and designations and the fact that positive action is always required to select the sensor that drives the designation.

tl;dr: Positive action is always required, the last sensor/system that was commanded to either track or designate is driving the designation and all other sensors are slaved to the designation. Note that they're not slaved to the designating sensors, but to the designation itself.

Simply changing the TDC priority from one page to another should do nothing to the designation and should not change the designating sensor, since positive action has not taken place.


Examples:

If the TDC is depressed on either sensor (or WPDSG etc is commanded on a WP/OAP/MK), you have a ground designation and the sensor/system that created it is driving it. The other sensors are slaved to the designation.

If sensor A is tracking, it drives the designation. Sensor B is slaved to the designation.

If sensor B is commanded to track or the TDC is pressed for it, it now drives the designation. Sensor A is slaved to the designation.

If WPDSG is used, a ground designation is created and all other sensors are slaved to it.

If the FLIR enters SCENE or AUTO, it'll automatically drive the designation, because it's tracking. If the TDC is depressed, it'll drive it through INR. The radar will exit tracking and will display the + on the designation. If the HUD gets TDC priority.

If the radar tracks a target, it'll automatically drive the designation. If the TDC is depressed, it'll drive it via a ground designation. The FLIR will exit SCENE or AUTO and be slaved to the radar's designation.

Also, if you do have something useful that might help with the bug report, I'd be grateful if you could add it.

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4 hours ago, Harker said:

I have access to the 746 and the 742, but what we're talking about isn't specific to the ATFLIR's or the radar's operation. It's about the general logic of sensors and designations and the fact that positive action is always required to select the sensor that drives the designation.

tl;dr: Positive action is always required, the last sensor/system that was commanded to either track or designate is driving the designation and all other sensors are slaved to the designation. Note that they're not slaved to the designating sensors, but to the designation itself.

Simply changing the TDC priority from one page to another should do nothing to the designation and should not change the designating sensor, since positive action has not taken place.


Examples:

If the TDC is depressed on either sensor (or WPDSG etc is commanded on a WP/OAP/MK), you have a ground designation and the sensor/system that created it is driving it. The other sensors are slaved to the designation.

If sensor A is tracking, it drives the designation. Sensor B is slaved to the designation.

If sensor B is commanded to track or the TDC is pressed for it, it now drives the designation. Sensor A is slaved to the designation.

If WPDSG is used, a ground designation is created and all other sensors are slaved to it.

If the FLIR enters SCENE or AUTO, it'll automatically drive the designation, because it's tracking. If the TDC is depressed, it'll drive it through INR. The radar will exit tracking and will display the + on the designation. If the HUD gets TDC priority.

If the radar tracks a target, it'll automatically drive the designation. If the TDC is depressed, it'll drive it via a ground designation. The FLIR will exit SCENE or AUTO and be slaved to the radar's designation.

Also, if you do have something useful that might help with the bug report, I'd be grateful if you could add it.

You seriously missed the captain jack part?

Seriously?

 

Maybe if i add Cooper to it it will help you.

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You seriously missed the captain jack part?
Seriously?
 
Maybe if i add Cooper to it it will help you.
You seriously missed the part about the sensor priority and designation discussion? Or the part where I asked you to contribute something useful to the thread and you didn't?

I understood your comment, I simply chose not to acknowledge it, since it has no bearing on the bug report. If you want to talk, you seem to know where I hang out on Discord, so message me there.

Now, if you don't mind, I'd like to return the conversation back to helping ED with producing an accurately modeled F/A-18C.
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1 hour ago, Harker said:

You seriously missed the part about the sensor priority and designation discussion? Or the part where I asked you to contribute something useful to the thread and you didn't?

I understood your comment, I simply chose not to acknowledge it, since it has no bearing on the bug report. If you want to talk, you seem to know where I hang out on Discord, so message me there.

Now, if you don't mind, I'd like to return the conversation back to helping ED with producing an accurately modeled F/A-18C.

There is nothing else to add past your initial thread and we cant post pic's either. Would you like me to beat the dead horse and point put the obvious like others aswell?

 

Besides it was reported long before this that auto mode is incorrect

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I will add that once FLIR is slewed, not only TDC depress, the radar should lose designation and enter AGR mode and FLIR should drive designation.

 

Any time FLIR is driving designation radar should be in AGR. Source is TACMAN

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