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This can't be right...invincible M113 to shark cannons


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Posted (edited)

huh?...must be the wrong trk.{I probably dragged the smoke trk from other thread by mistake...unless its a save glitch) I'll resend the right one..hopefully.


Edited by Raven434th

 

 

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It didn't save, so no trk file....I'll have to try and rerun the mission to see if it will capture the issue again....sucks

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Ok,so I tried it again but could only do damage within 1-1.5 km  range and only from the side with sabow rounds...it laughed off the HE pretty much which is surprising.


Edited by Raven434th

 

 

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your trk is engaging with missiles...I'm referring to cannon. My thinking is ,the m113 is made of aluminum, and should be vulnerable at longer ranges with HE or sabot.

 

 

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i know from real world experience that unless there is armor augmentation of some sort, a 50 cal (12.7 mm) round can easily penetrate an M-113. with that said merely hitting on the side will likely kill everyone inside. now does that constitute damage? the engine and transmission is in front and the crew is behind it for the rest of its length. hitting there with heavy machine gun will kill the vehicle.

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I've also perceived this. Too lazy to go fetch trackfiles, but recently (i.e. somewhere 2.7+) I've also noticed rounds hitting but causing zero damage. Especially HE rounds on trucks and BTR-80s, where one can see the impact, but no damage. For reference before 2.7, trucks would start burning from one HE direct hit, and BTR-80s from 2.

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yeah I wonder about this too, but I really had no idea what kind of damage to expect on a btr since it is I believe more armoured than a m113. As for a bradley ,I believe its aluminum as well but with armoured plates hung off of it...making it tougher than a m113

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6 minutes ago, Raven434th said:

yeah I wonder about this too, but I really had no idea what kind of damage to expect on a btr since it is I believe more armoured than a m113. As for a bradley ,I believe its aluminum as well but with armoured plates hung off of it...making it tougher than a m113

 

I think the 82 at least has spall liners, which will probably mitigate the effects of 30mm HE. But 30mm AP should still go through it.  

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spall liners for crew compartment...but is the engine compartment protected from spall??

 

 

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1 hour ago, Raven434th said:

yeah I wonder about this too, but I really had no idea what kind of damage to expect on a btr since it is I believe more armoured than a m113. As for a bradley ,I believe its aluminum as well but with armoured plates hung off of it...making it tougher than a m113

 

As a 12.7 mm AP does go through the BTR-60, BTR-70 and possibly BTR-80 armor (7-10 mm armor on that one) at couple kilometers, but you need to be able hit it and at proper angle.

So the 12.7 mm caliber is limited by the maximum effective range, but spalling is the real problem as you just need to penetrate about 2-3 mm to be able damage vehicle and kill person inside. 

 

What comes to cannon calibers, 20-30 mm autocannon etc with AP would just snap through at any distance and at much better angles (still IIRC < 60 degree hit angle required), but most importantly those already has a much better accuracy because more advanced aiming systems and more stable firing platforms.

  And why the HE shell should be devastating on direct impact, where even spall liners could let some spalling through and so on injure or damage vehicle some manner.

 

These simulations would require that DCS model vehicles main parts at least properly, but not just that, DCS is required to simulate the most critical part of each vehicle - the crew.

Even when you are inside a APC and 12.7 mm is started to shot at, you will steer away to cover because any of them can get through as easily as just ricochet, and closer you get to shooter then easier target you are and likelihood for destruction/death is multiplied.

 

If someone would be in APC under fire of KA-50's 30 mm cannon, some people are likely dead or heavily injured in first burst.

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yeah...just had this conversation with a tanker/general dynamics guy and in his opinion those APC's would be heavily damaged within engagement range of shark.

 

 

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I witnessed a fratracide incident during training. The APC got in front of the tanks and the M-85 cut it to pieces with only a few rounds. Not pretty.

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Frontal armour is pretty strong, you need to ensure you are using AP rounds

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The M113 does not pose a problem for the Ka-50, unlike Bradley.

Ka-50 gun vs M113.trk

 

 

Bradley is a tough nut to crack.

According to expert estimates, as a result of the modernization of the vehicle carried out in 1988 with an increase in the armor mass of more than 3 tons, the equivalent of frontal projection protection (mm of steel) reached 110-130 mm [6]. As a result of the modernization of the M2A2 infantry fighting vehicle from the front lines of fire, it is not affected by the armor-piercing feathered shells of the 30-mm 2A42 and 2A72 cannons when fired from a distance of 100 m.

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4 minutes ago, Chizh said:

The M113 does not pose a problem for the Ka-50, unlike Bradley.

Ka-50 gun vs M113.trk 44.14 kB · 2 downloads

 

 

Bradley is a tough nut to crack.

 

I wish I could find the report from one repair depot commanding officer how Bradley front armor was thin that even a 12.7 mm rounds went through the front armor to engine or worst case in to driver. This was the first gulf war era report (I can only assume) as it was after second one in 2003-2004 when read it first time. It was one of the arguments calling for better armors that increased weight considerably and why the Stryker was a good choice to replace Bradley.

 

 

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Thanks for your test, @Chizh. I see you used AP rounds.

 

I tried your mission with HE rounds in different conditions:

  • Track 1: laser ON. It took me the whole HE rounds to ill that ME113. As BIGNEWY said, it seems the front plate won't let HE rounds through... at all!
  • Track 2:  one burst with laser ON = no damage, one burst with laser OFF: insta-kill. Disabling laser makes rounds to fly over the target: as soon as they hit the roof, the ME113 took damage.
  • Track 3: laser ON. HMV and M-818 truck insta-kill.

Conclusion : don't use HE rounds when in front of a M-113. They are tougher than they look.😐

Ka-50 gun vs HMV and M818_Flappie3.trk Ka-50 gun vs M113_Flappie2.trk Ka-50 gun vs M113_Flappie1.trk

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, BIGNEWY said:

Frontal armour is pretty strong, you need to ensure you are using AP rounds

But...In my case and the reason I reported this, is I used ALL rounds(both AP and HE on the m113 within range and there was ZERO damage.


Edited by Raven434th

 

 

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Raven434th said:

yeah I wonder about this too, but I really had no idea what kind of damage to expect on a btr since it is I believe more armoured than a m113. As for a bradley ,I believe its aluminum as well but with armoured plates hung off of it...making it tougher than a m113

 

  Most these things, BTRs, BMPs, etc are armored to withstand .50s from the front at medium/close ranges and may be moderately resistant to 20-30mm at longer engagement ranges (absorb the first hit or two, but repeated hits will pen). From the sides, pretty much everything will go through except small arms. Bradleys and BMP-3s are generally ''heavier'' persay, but it's still a similar situation, resistant across the front, pretty thin on the sides. They're probably better protected against HEAT rounds from RPGs than from actual AP rounds due to ERA and such.

 

-edit

By that I mean it's probably a bug or unintended armoring. It shouldn't be shrugging off 30mm AP usually unless at extreme range. HE rounds won't do much to an armored vehicle, you're basically throwing hand grenades at it. Might damage a track or optic.


Edited by Mars Exulte
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38 minutes ago, Raven434th said:

But...In my case and the reason I reported this, is I used ALL rounds(both AP and HE on the m113 within range and there was ZERO damage.

 

If your AP rounds really do no damage, please provide a track showing this.

 

Here's a new run with only AP rounds. As soon as my AP rounds hit the front plate or anything else, the M113 takes damage.

AP_run.trk

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3 часа назад, Flappie сказал:

Yes, oddly enough, AP shells were invented just for penetrating armored vehicles. 😉

 

1 час назад, Raven434th сказал:

But...In my case and the reason I reported this, is I used ALL rounds(both AP and HE on the m113 within range and there was ZERO damage.

 

Just play my track at your PC

 

 

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