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Posted (edited)

Hi Does anyone get the feeling that the rudders (control surface) move unrealistically too fast (change direction too fast) not only in the spitfire but the majority of the wwii warbirds.

I upgraded from the tfrp rudder pedals to the mfg thinking that it was a cheap hardware issue but still think of the same. They almost turn in an instant to the command issued and its not an issue that will be resolved by adding non linearity or changing saturation values because then 50% command will not be 50% movement (My opinion is that by adding some input delay to the control surface would be more realistic). 

I have real time stick hours and also fly model airplanes and I mention this because the best way I can describe the current situation is as having a model plane with really fast rudder servos!. The best way to see this is by going on exterior view and do some control surface hard right and hard left pedal testing.

 

PS: Im pretty sure the physics and aerodynamics are good but the fast responding control surfaces are playing tricks to the overall feel


Edited by fapador
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So you want the rudder surface to move some time after you move the rudder pedals?

Why?

This does not happen in real aircraft.

Having lag in a control system is the perfect setup for getting over controlling and pilot induced oscillation.

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I don't think he means latency, just slower movement of the control surface itself. For example instead of reaching full deflection in 0.5sec, reach full deflection in 0.3sec. 

 

It is very obvious that all the aircraft in DCS, not just warbirds, have hyper-sensitive rudders. Even with a curve of 20 on my Saitek pedals, 5mm of movement results in significant yaw. 

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Posted (edited)

This is how it is. Only that in real plane you have significant resistance on rudder pedals in flight. Like someone said, install some kind of dampener, you can use shock absorber from car, im sure you wont move rudder fast anymore. 


Edited by grafspee
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Posted (edited)

yeah it moves too fast compared to  ailerons and elevator. damper is no solution I have real time flying hours and i can assure you rudder pedals are smooth and easy to depress in small planes and even in a320 cae simulator I have tried . all I am asking is a couple of milliseconds more delay. In real life there is material elasticity cable stretch there are also rigid body dynamics and the overall motion system response of the complete rudder mechanism. I think there should be some review on the modelling of the yaw/rudder of the planes. I tend to agree to nealius. the rudders respond in a dime almost instant deflection more like a 3d aerobatic rc plane 


Edited by fapador
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Posted (edited)

I am not asking for a whole second delay just  a couple of more millisecs like 0.0020

If thats the way it is then why is the rudder so much faster responding than the elevators and ailerons in the spitfire ?? Its very obvious upon going on exterior view


Edited by fapador
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Posted (edited)

Rudder movement is always synchronized with the pedal movement (unless you have really, really loose rudder cables). :sad_2:

I think there is some confusion between the response time and the rate of response.

Slow down the initial rate of response with a curve.

That's why we have curves.

You can reduce the overall sensitivity by reducing saturation Y.

If you really want a delay, put in a large dead zone.

(Control theory is very interesting with feedback loops and gain control getting very messy when you put a human into it)!


Edited by Terry Dactil
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Posted (edited)

Large deadzone will not produce delay . it will only delay the start time of your action not make rudder move slower, nevertheless adding deadzone will also make rudders even more sensitive as you will have even less throw or potentiometer/sensor range also Non Linearity is complete useless for rudder pedals in my opinion and should be kept to 0. By the way I got a newly released sim called WOA: Glider simulator, and I have to say the planes there have by far the most correct yaw/rudder response physics  that I have ever  tried on a PC simulation. Im still convinced that the rudder is modelled oversensitive in dcs and  the new msfs too. If only we had an option to tune that down like response delay or noise filter It is just over responsive and makes the planes not have a balanced feel across all the control surfaces. Its quite obvious that the rest (pitch and roll) respond much more tamed thats in external view.


Edited by fapador
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I agree with the rudder response in comparison with glider sims. I tried Condor 2 a couple months ago and the rudder sensitivity felt spot on to me, from what little stick time I've had in gliders. 

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10 hours ago, fapador said:

Large deadzone will not produce delay . it will only delay the start time of your action not make rudder move slower, nevertheless adding deadzone will also make rudders even more sensitive as you will have even less throw or potentiometer/sensor range also Non Linearity is complete useless for rudder pedals in my opinion and should be kept to 0. By the way I got a newly released sim called WOA: Glider simulator, and I have to say the planes there have by far the most correct yaw/rudder response physics  that I have ever  tried on a PC simulation. Im still convinced that the rudder is modelled oversensitive in dcs and  the new msfs too. If only we had an option to tune that down like response delay or noise filter It is just over responsive and makes the planes not have a balanced feel across all the control surfaces. Its quite obvious that the rest (pitch and roll) respond much more tamed thats in external view.

 

All planes in DCS are made regarding known rudder effectiveness data that is available from the test flight reports. If we have lack of this data for some planes we add CFD obtained data.
Generally, in the real plane you need to apply significant force to deflect the rudder. Plain plastic pedals have nothing comparable to these forces, and there is no good solution for the problem except having a strong spring on the pedals.
Small non-linearity could help a bit, but any "velocity limiting", "lagging", etc are not only useless but extremely harmhul causing PIO. Anyone who worked with feedback knows that additional pole or (that is much worse!) slew rate limiting is a real nightmare regarding stability.

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Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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What we need it rudder with variable spring tension, at 0 velocity no spring tension should be present on rudder and gradual increase with increasing IAS or prop wash.

I7 8700k 4.9GHz, Gigabyte Z390 Aorus PRO, Ram 32 GB G.skill, Palit Gamerock OC 3090,Hotas Warthog, T.Flight Rudder Pedals

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If you mean clipping - it presents. Variable gear ratio - never.

 

Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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Posted (edited)

I dont state that its a force problem. Its exactly as you state it, a very small slew rate reduction is needed in my opinion Sure a large lag will lead to instability but its quite obvious in the current state that the ailerons and elevators have already some kind of lag build in to them  but the rudders  have not . Perhaps an addition to the controls page so everyone can personalise it on his own, not a hard coding change in physics would be a great solution (As msfs has a setting called reactivity but not so sure if it works the same). 

Also this post (scroll down)talks about PIO according to some research they have calculated that 0.3ms is the maximum lag that doesnt cause instability i wonder what is the response time in DCS planes.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/68322/what-is-the-maximal-acceptable-delay-between-pilots-input-and-flight-control-su 

 

Also the deflection rudder forces needed in dcs are quite realistic in my opinion the problem is that when you command them (for example 20%rudder deflection) the forces get applied in an instant thats for the rudder only though.


Edited by fapador
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5 hours ago, fapador said:

I dont state that its a force problem. Its exactly as you state it, a very small slew rate reduction is needed in my opinion Sure a large lag will lead to instability but its quite obvious in the current state that the ailerons and elevators have already some kind of lag build in to them  but the rudders  have not . Perhaps an addition to the controls page so everyone can personalise it on his own, not a hard coding change in physics would be a great solution (As msfs has a setting called reactivity but not so sure if it works the same). 

Also this post (scroll down)talks about PIO according to some research they have calculated that 0.3ms is the maximum lag that doesnt cause instability i wonder what is the response time in DCS planes.

https://aviation.stackexchange.com/questions/68322/what-is-the-maximal-acceptable-delay-between-pilots-input-and-flight-control-su 

 

Also the deflection rudder forces needed in dcs are quite realistic in my opinion the problem is that when you command them (for example 20%rudder deflection) the forces get applied in an instant thats for the rudder only though.

 

Probably I understand your wishes...I can say that we implemented the new way of hinge moment handling for P-47 but only for ailerons. Mostly it was done to check the effect. Lateral channel, first of all, is less prone to PIO due to its transient function, and, additionally, the force model itself does not induce PIO, if the player's input is sane for the certain conditions.
So, for the rudder and, especially , for pitch we have to wait a bit and make additional tests to approve this approach.
As for me - Mi-24 has special device that limits pedals input velocity. And it is a very good helper to get PIO...

 

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Ніщо так сильно не ранить мозок, як уламки скла від розбитих рожевих окулярів

There is nothing so hurtful for the brain as splinters of broken rose-coloured spectacles.

Ничто так сильно не ранит мозг, как осколки стекла от разбитых розовых очков (С) Me

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