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I just figured I'd discuss what's on my mind but also other tips would be good to pool knowledge. 

In other planes notably the Russian ones with good IRST I often would turn my radar off and use the IRST + AWACs to ambush hunt enemy planes.

The F14s radar is famous but I wonder in a multiplayer environment if that radar may not be a little on the losing side as far as its age and using it draws attention to you in a big way.  So then I started thinking how could one use the F14 alone well in multiplayer?  Obviously the Phoenix's are a huge strength and to not take advantage would be dumb.  However to get their best use you've got that blaring radar so to speak and I get my best bvr kills with it at height and speed to help the missile too..

With multicrew to divide the work and a good RIO I suppose you could use AWACs calls and datalink to try to pop out of places; turn on the radar launch and run; but alone that'd be a bit harder with jester. Not to mention the AWACs can be spotty especially in multiplayer - just yesterday I got a bogey dope for 45 miles away.  As I was turning to try to find the contact I got a missile call and an aim9x up my tailpipe.  Some f16 jock snuck in...

Forgive my rambling stream of consciousness I'm just spitballing ideas

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Tomcats would do that in real life using FF data link. Two sections in a wide bracket. One nose hot, one nose cold. The hot section does a grinder keeping the enemy occupied and on data link for the cold section which comes in from left field. 

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But alone..?  What about alone? Do people lean towards mach 1 at 40k ft or canyon running for pop up attacks?

Going high and fast seems to really make one a target and against seem pretty potent modern airframes; and alone I'm starting to wonder if that's not the best strategy.

 

 

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Posted (edited)

Oh... you’re alone on a multiplayer server. I see. Run a good timeline and you’ve got nothing to worry about. Know the Max Abort Range for your opponent. Shoot (~35NM), crank to gimbles, skate at pitbull, assess (offensive or defensive? blind or tally? spiked or naked?), press or escape by MAR. Read up on timeline tactics and practice. Die many times and eventually you’ll be the master. 


Edited by Spiceman
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In modern environment, you have to avoid going less then 10 nm, Aim9X will chew you up and you are big bird, easy to spot and track visually. Remember that 54 gives you much longer stick than 120s. Close to 15nm, lock in Pulse STT, launch 54 (launches active so fire and forget) and go cold. 

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Interested why you said lock in pulse?  Wouldn't TWS be better?

Yes the Aim9xs are a problem.  As is SA.  It seems without a wingman or RIO you really gotta be good to stand up to the newer airframes

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4 minutes ago, sublime said:

Interested why you said lock in pulse?  Wouldn't TWS be better?

 

 

When the missile is launched active from the rail, TWS doesn't matter anymore since he receives the launch warning anyway.

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What?? Really??  I thought TWS meant they got no warning just like how AMRAAMs don't give a launch warning until the missiles pitbull??

1 minute ago, razo+r said:

 

When the missile is launched active from the rail, TWS doesn't matter anymore since he receives the launch warning anyway.

∆∆

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Posted (edited)
2 minutes ago, sublime said:

What?? Really??  I thought TWS meant they got no warning just like how AMRAAMs don't give a launch warning until the missiles pitbull??

∆∆

 

Yes, TWS doesn't give a warning until Pitpull. But since missile goes almost immediately pitbull (from this short distance), he gets the warning very soon.


Edited by razo+r
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Ohh I see because the launch distance.  I usually fire around 35-30 miles.  15 is close.. AMRAAMs range.  I'm sure much more if the problem is I'm not spotting enemies when they're super far out (mostly me perhaps partially hardware) and im not some l33t ace.

Maybe I should take my ass over to the cold war server. Lmao an A model there is probably king. Well.. somewhat.

Ive flown MP solo F14 before; but muuuuch more as a RIO or a crew.  I can't overstate how much it helps to have a GIB.  Not just the extra eyes.  The extra brain especially focussed on the radar RWR and able to focus on the ground stab is priceless.  It really makes the F14 that much more deadly IMO.

I was also pretty concerned about friendly fire.  When flying with a squad even in a crew we had to be really careful of that. I ended up throwing caution to the wind and didn't hit anything anyways; I fired too far.  60 miles (I knew it was stupid..). 40 miles I hoped but should have known better.

The last sortie I flew I took off from Gaudata and headed northeast. AWACs was manic calling contacts that it lost and at first I was like a leashed dog lunging this way and that.  Eventually I tired of this and decided to go really low towards the enemy bases..   then I did a pop up and jester tells me enemy gorilla group. Not good!  I look and yeah there's 8 contacts . High and hot.   I'm low.  I'm heading towards them and I suddenly got a spike from my 3 where there weren't supposed to be bandits.  I got alarmed and went down. When I reappeared there seemed to be now 10+ bandits!  Now they were about 40 to 60m.. I grew concerned by the unexpected spike and some AWACS calls behind me.  I remembered the sortie before I had checked out a friendly f18 on TCS and then got the aim9x up my tailpipe.   I rippled my phoenixes.  Sparrows haven't worked for a damn against the AI so I've been taking 4 aim9ms..

After rippling the phoenixes I cranked for a couple minutes.  All missiles missed.  I started getting missile warnings and dodged at least 3 missiles; one VERY close over my cockpit that luckily didn't detonate then.

Wildly thinking around; pulse racing I started doing PAL locks (or plm? The longer ranged one) and I got a couple locks up high. Nothing about friendlies from jester so 2 sidewinders . Nada :/. Tried it on another.. hopeful but nothing..  then as I fired the last two a f16 screamed past me at head on; trailed by a sidewinder it just fired that went into my face. Didn't kill me surprisingly; but the bird was on the way down.  Jester got wounded -heard a couple voice lines I never heard before.  The end. Lol

Question - on the countermeasures thing for jester I genuinely do the fence in option with auto chaff.  Then I also turn music on right at take off if totally alone and leave it.  Thoughts?

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Do you use IFF?

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I observed via tacview some of high scored pilot tactic in MP. They mostly cirle around not far from SAM coverage near airbase. Fly high.... lob some Phoenixs.... extend and defending with SAM support and repeat.....pretty boring IMO.

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1 hour ago, Dunx said:

Do you use IFF?

I try to but jester imo sucks at it.  It's verrry ironic you asked this..

I got two kills doing mostly the same stuff. 2 f18s one phoenix one aim9 the last killed me before my missile killed him.

The next sortie I locked a friendly. Unlocked. There was a enemy near and I locked the friendly again unwittingly.  This time jester didn't say anything.  Friendly kill 😞

I didn't even get to type in 'sorry' and he had punished me and I got autobooted to spectators.  I felt bad too..

This is why I keep asking HB for a jester IFF int command.

26 minutes ago, Oceandar said:

I observed via tacview some of high scored pilot tactic in MP. They mostly cirle around not far from SAM coverage near airbase. Fly high.... lob some Phoenixs.... extend and defending with SAM support and repeat.....pretty boring IMO.
 

Yeah. I'm not doing that BS.  I already thought of doing that or using a CV group to go up extend launch and dive and run into the umbrella. If this was IRL it'd be totally different lol

No balls no fun IMO.   Especially when I'm playing PvE alone it's basically air quake. So many of my missions are 90% odds of death. I enjoy the raising tension as I rocket into the enemy territory and the threats stack. That said I also want a fighting chance.

I gotta say the 2 kills I got in Growling Sidewinder were very close to my airfield not by choice but what are you gonna do if jesters yelling ,"it's game time" when you're still on the apron?  I took off and engaged maybe ~ 30 miles from base.  First kill was 1 of 4 aim54s rippled...  I never got very high but was probably at my apex at 10k. Going defensive especially after the missiles went active got me to about 1-2k and totally disoriented frankly. I couldn't honestly tell you how much I moved laterally; I just know I had threats and missile beeps everywhere.  I had a constant PAL lock (pretty sure) and it got a contact . I couldn't see it and another warning. Fire 2 and go defensive..got the diamond scrolling looking and it gets another.  This one I can see. I get him at 12 level and fire 2 sidewinders.  I get a missile warning and almost immediately killed by a amraam.  One of the 2 aim9ms (or both) hit em though and he ate it too.


Edited by sublime
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On 5/30/2021 at 2:26 PM, sublime said:

Interested why you said lock in pulse?  Wouldn't TWS be better?

Yes the Aim9xs are a problem.  As is SA.  It seems without a wingman or RIO you really gotta be good to stand up to the newer airframes

Because at the moment PSTT is fire-and-forget, sort of TWS that allows you to engage a target without giving him almost any warning from any range.

 

Caveats:

1- the WCS is not guiding, so no loft;

2- same reason, no lead;

3- the PSTT lock may warn the target, but for a second, then no warnings until 10nm. Even the old AI that used to defend vs TWS was not defending until 10nm.

 

1 and 2 mean that you need fairly short range and TA I'd say ±15° top.

3 is due to a limitation that HB ran into (long story short, they need ED to provide stuff).

 

As silly as it may sound, in some situations it is even more effective than TWS (but the hostiles must have the SA of a brick).

I recorded this video to answer a question, and I was honestly quite amused in the end. Fun stuff starts at 10'18".

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17 hours ago, Karon said:

Because at the moment PSTT is fire-and-forget, sort of TWS that allows you to engage a target without giving him almost any warning from any range.

 

Caveats:

1- the WCS is not guiding, so no loft;

2- same reason, no lead;

3- the PSTT lock may warn the target, but for a second, then no warnings until 10nm. Even the old AI that used to defend vs TWS was not defending until 10nm.

 

1 and 2 mean that you need fairly short range and TA I'd say ±15° top.

3 is due to a limitation that HB ran into (long story short, they need ED to provide stuff).

 

As silly as it may sound, in some situations it is even more effective than TWS (but the hostiles must have the SA of a brick).

I recorded this video to answer a question, and I was honestly quite amused in the end. Fun stuff starts at 10'18".

Interesting. Note however I'm specifically talking about multiplayer.  I don't know what mentioning the AI has to do with it?  The ai cheats..


Edited by sublime
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2 hours ago, sublime said:

Interesting. Note however I'm specifically talking about multiplayer.  I don't know what mentioning the AI has to do with it?  The ai cheats..

 

Yes, you said that in the title of the post.

 

I had my fair share of PvP, PvE and sim through the years. You don't need much to realize that the average airquake player has poor SA at best. Ergo, if you find a way to employ something that gives you an advantage (in this case, no hard lock or sustain required, you can immediately defend) even versus the cheating, all seeing, AI, then chances are that procedure will work even against the typical random airquake player (if the caveats are respected). Pulse has many other advantages, and enables the Sparrow.

 

Regarding the tactics instead (ref your post on Sunday), I wouldn't do anything you did, so I can't really suggest much. However, some of your other questions are well explained in the manual, such as the limitations of PD/TWS, Pulse, LINK 4A/C and so on. Those pages hint you what is simpler or more efficient to use in different conditions (there is no "best"), and how to compensate for the limitations of the hardware. You can get a better idea by testing and practising yourself.

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Thing is this definitely does alert the average player with a solid lock warning. Its a bit more than one second if you're using Jester.  Also since the last patch or two sparrows don't work in practice. Maybe they do for you but for me Ive used 7 with zero hits and most not even seeming to track before I stopped using them. That's against ai! You're still hitting with sparrows?  I used to all the time but the last couple months. I don't even take em. 

Indeed instead of pulse it seems instead of doing a lock the ideal way to get the result you describe is when you're sure a target you're going to lock and fire immediately at(only way to even get close to what you describe) and in that case maybe an aim54 with the ACM switch up is the best bet.

Also -

I'm posting asking about tactics. I'm not stupid or new- I don't think there's a 'best way' as all the situations are different; but there definitely will be better ways than others especially when I note I'm flying alone.

SA and air quake players is one thing - a strong RWR warning is another and isn't asking much of a players.  The later jets like f16 and f18 also raise holy hell more than some others ISTR.  If they can figure out how to use SRS and fly their f16 or f18 over and be a threat to me than Ill be safe and wager they'll be hip to a lock on. Nevermind also I'm hardly a Richthofen and part of my problem in this situation is lack of SA too. 

And though I probably have fairly bad SA often; I can guarantee that I'll know if something gets a hard lock on me. 

 

I'm really getting hammered mostly by *pitbull aim120s that seem to go pitbull and hit within a second. 

* Off boresight Aim9xs..

I'll get a few kills but meh.. 


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You alert it for less than a second, and the mention of the AIM-7 was a sidenote. The focus was on the AIM-54.

 

Look, I think we are not understanding each other. We are speaking different languages. It's fine, I'm sure you'll find what you are looking for.

The only suggestions I can give you, if I may, is to improve your SA. If you get killed by a 120 or someone's sneaking up on you, it means that your SA can be improved. If I were you, rather than aiming for kills, I'd work hard and try to stay alive first. It is the superior SA that makes you win, not the AIM-120 or the AIM-54.

 

Good luck! 🙂

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Posted (edited)

I think you misunderstand me asking questions about your post for hostility.  It's not hostility.

Are your aim 7s working? 

Oh I am working to stay alive.  The focus isn't on kills for kills sake but killing the things that are killing me.   For example most the sorties the other day jester was already yelling 'here we go again' before I even took off.

The SA definitely could use improvement.  But how do you suggest improving the SA?


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The Tomcat's strength is high and long.  Alone, and with Jester, you're basically going to be limited to shooting long phoenixes and maintaining a safety bubble with possible enemies.  That does not mean being predictable - even changing your heading from time to time to approach from a different angle, at high speed, will throw off someone sneaking in the valleys from being able to get to you stealthily, and you'll never even know you did it except in the aggregate of fewer deaths.

 

Your SA down low is just going to be worse than the Link-16 aircraft or flankers.  Your weapons employment will be slower in a compressed timeline than a Mirage or Eagle.  Even with a good RIO you're at a disadvantage against newer and more integrated radars that do what the pilot tell them without having to coordinate verbally with another crewmember.  Don't give them their fight down low, and if you have to go low, do so defensively with intent to create space to climb back, not to pursue and engage.

 

In short, there's no shortcut to improve SA.  Understand what your enemies' strengths are, and where you're strongest, and focus on maintaining that situation.  You create SA this way be dictating the situation part, rather than relying on building the awareness part, because your airframe is stronger at deciding the context of a fight than it is at helping you remain aware of a changing context.  Sure, keeping your eyes outside the cockpit, maintaining visual, using the datalink, etc, all still apply - but you just can't rely on them to carry you against aircraft that have all those tools, presented better to them.

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Basically what I thought.  All good advice. I asked because K specifically told me to 'improve my SA instead of focussing on kills'

But I frankly don't know any method to 'exercise' my SA to grow it like a muscle as it were, except by online trying to get kills

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No problem, no hostility 🙂

 

Let's see if I can myself more clear: the core of your aircraft is the AWG-9 WCS. It has been around since 1962. You cannot expect the same level of processing power and automation of a modern aircraft. Take the AN/APG-73 used by our F/A-18C: it has been adopted in 1992 (source: wiki), that's 30 years after the AWG-9. Time-wise, it's the same interval that goes from the Red Baron's WWI planes, to the first jets. Now, this comparison is a bit silly, but hopefully, it helps me to convey the message: you cannot do what a Su-27 or an F-16 do. You can actually do many things better than them, but you need a good RIO and you, in primis, need to learn how to play as RIO. That is, imo, the only way to change your forma mentis, learn first-hand the limitations, the quirks and the tricks that such an old WCS.

 

Allow me to rephrase: the AWG-9 is incredibly powerful, but it's old, and it does not process and display the information as a Viper does. This is, again, due to the technological gap, but also the fact that the Viper is a single-crew aircraft. Hence, you need another human brain in the backseat to really make the Tomcat shine. In fact, I would even argue that a good crew have better SA, generally speaking, of any Viper or Hornet, especially as the situation becomes more confusing because you have a person dedicated to deal with such mess.

 

 

All the reasons I mentioned earlier also mean that you have to outsmart your opponent whenever you can, and you have to play using the F-14's strengths. You can't play as, sadly, the Flankers have to play, low and EOS, because the TCS is not nearly as good for that purpose. The AIM-54 is spectacular, but at shorter ranges it is worse than an AIM-120C because it accelerates much slower, not to mention the fact that you have no 9x nor HMD to launch them at almost any angle. If you instead focus on building a superior SA, work on your positioning and press the advantage, then you can even merge without feeling inferior (although it'll always be a dangerous business).

Building and improving your SA is straightforward, the manual gives you the technical details you need, the rest is up to your ingenuity. It really does not take much to learn to improve your awareness, trust me. There is an unlimited number of ways to learn and practice by means of the mission editor, for example.

 

However, when you say "I'm not doing that BS" or "No balls no fun", that's where I draw a line and say that we do not speak the same language: if you want to play like a Viper does, by all means do it, but then you will run into the issues you are experiencing already. Alternatively, you can play in a Cold War server vs anything from the 60s to the late 80s, and you will definitely have more success with such tactics than when you are fighting versus post 90s aircraft (a shame we do not have the F-15A and the F-16A, btw).

That being said, all you need to start was suggested at the very beginning of the thread by Spiceman himself: use a 35nm timeline, Skate, Assess and so on. But if you want to Banzai every time, well, it simply does not work vs more modern aircraft.

 

I hope my message makes more sense now. Again, good luck out there! 🙂

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Posted (edited)

Yeah, following the thread here you're making two points that contradict each other. You want it to be fun and action packed but you also want to use "boring" tactics to basically win every fight you get into. All while being a one man show, which severely restricts your tactical options. There is a reason why 1 vs many stories where the 1 guy wins is so incredibly rare. And why there aren't real john wicks taking down entire gangs singlehandedly in gun and hand to hand fighting. At that point, calling it tactics is barely the correct term to throw around. At that point, it's just being a very good fighter pilot. Having great situational awareness at all times, being highly skilled in NOE flying, setting up ambushes and being able to accurately predict other player movments when you or AWACS do not have eyes on enemies, getting into the correct flows against your opponents, being able to consistently defeat 120s, R77s, ETs, ERs and 9Xs like they're nothing, killing your opponents quickly, not making any critical mistakes in BVR or WVR and flying the aircraft like it's just an extension of your body, never getting wing rock out of control, never stalling or over Ging the aircraft or otherwise departing controlled flight. At this point, you might as well practice till you can take off, AAR, fight and land in your sleep. Forget about tactics. 


Edited by WelshZeCorgi
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20 hours ago, sublime said:

Basically what I thought.  All good advice. I asked because K specifically told me to 'improve my SA instead of focussing on kills'

But I frankly don't know any method to 'exercise' my SA to grow it like a muscle as it were, except by online trying to get kills

 

PPP PPP .... prior preparation prevents p poor performance.

 

SA is all about planning.  You're not going to get it by getting kills - I mean you'll get something in time by repetition, you'll be able to figure out that the enemies usually come from that direction and at that altitude, and as you've already figure out you work a little slower than the modern fighters.

 

So how do you get SA FAST?  Start thinking about all of those things.  Yes, it's a lot ... but literally sit down and draw out a plan - everything from where you're going to point your nose and at what time, to where you're going to point your antenna and when.

What volume of airspace are you interested in?  Put it on the map.

How much time do you require to complete a scan of a specific airspace from altitude A to altitude B?

Can opponents hide somewhere despite your scan?

Can opponents sneak in low or high while you're scanning the opposite?  This goes back to 'how much time do I need ...' and morphs into 'how fast are they going to close with me' ... etc.

 

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While this is true I disagree about the idea that you don't gain it by kills. If you're the grim reaper of the air than you have good SA- if you're getting consistent kills it's probably in part due to SA.

My observation on this so far from my perspective :

it very very much is an issue that can be really helped by a RIO or a wingman.  Prior planning just won't work that well in a PVE server.  Plan for what?  The situations so fluid.  You're basically stuck picking a 'method' ( high or low? Radar or no? Etc )

since there's really nothing to plan in say growling sidewinder; I don't see how one really would improve SA without more practice continuously and even better a RIO/wingman.

proof in the pudding for me?  I take up a Jf17..  because the better comp stuff; datalink; my SA was way better.  At least one kill every sortie; sometimes 2. 3/4 sorties I'm landing undamaged as well.

Vast majority of kills are F18s; then F14s and F16s.

what's this tell me?  It tells me that in an airframe with flashier comp devices to assist in SA and whatnot I'm way more dangerous.  It also tells me that perhaps there's a cap - at least for me - in how well I'll be able to do a 2 person job alone against other humans 

 

 

On 6/2/2021 at 7:16 PM, Karon said:

No problem, no hostility 🙂

 

Let's see if I can myself more clear: the core of your aircraft is the AWG-9 WCS. It has been around since 1962. You cannot expect the same level of processing power and automation of a modern aircraft. Take the AN/APG-73 used by our F/A-18C: it has been adopted in 1992 (source: wiki), that's 30 years after the AWG-9. Time-wise, it's the same interval that goes from the Red Baron's WWI planes, to the first jets. Now, this comparison is a bit silly, but hopefully, it helps me to convey the message: you cannot do what a Su-27 or an F-16 do. You can actually do many things better than them, but you need a good RIO and you, in primis, need to learn how to play as RIO. That is, imo, the only way to change your forma mentis, learn first-hand the limitations, the quirks and the tricks that such an old WCS.

 

Allow me to rephrase: the AWG-9 is incredibly powerful, but it's old, and it does not process and display the information as a Viper does. This is, again, due to the technological gap, but also the fact that the Viper is a single-crew aircraft. Hence, you need another human brain in the backseat to really make the Tomcat shine. In fact, I would even argue that a good crew have better SA, generally speaking, of any Viper or Hornet, especially as the situation becomes more confusing because you have a person dedicated to deal with such mess.

 

 

All the reasons I mentioned earlier also mean that you have to outsmart your opponent whenever you can, and you have to play using the F-14's strengths. You can't play as, sadly, the Flankers have to play, low and EOS, because the TCS is not nearly as good for that purpose. The AIM-54 is spectacular, but at shorter ranges it is worse than an AIM-120C because it accelerates much slower, not to mention the fact that you have no 9x nor HMD to launch them at almost any angle. If you instead focus on building a superior SA, work on your positioning and press the advantage, then you can even merge without feeling inferior (although it'll always be a dangerous business).

Building and improving your SA is straightforward, the manual gives you the technical details you need, the rest is up to your ingenuity. It really does not take much to learn to improve your awareness, trust me. There is an unlimited number of ways to learn and practice by means of the mission editor, for example.

 

However, when you say "I'm not doing that BS" or "No balls no fun", that's where I draw a line and say that we do not speak the same language: if you want to play like a Viper does, by all means do it, but then you will run into the issues you are experiencing already. Alternatively, you can play in a Cold War server vs anything from the 60s to the late 80s, and you will definitely have more success with such tactics than when you are fighting versus post 90s aircraft (a shame we do not have the F-15A and the F-16A, btw).

That being said, all you need to start was suggested at the very beginning of the thread by Spiceman himself: use a 35nm timeline, Skate, Assess and so on. But if you want to Banzai every time, well, it simply does not work vs more modern aircraft.

 

I hope my message makes more sense now. Again, good luck out there! 🙂

Came to the same solution if you see my post above.  The older airframe and it being made for 2 men. I took the jf17 and it was night and day. No blue on blue kills. Fairly good idea of what was going on; surviving..

Oh and I know how to RIO fwiw.  I've got several dozen hours as one in MP 

The tactic I just don't feel is sporting (in a game on a PvE server) is legit sitting over an airfield not moving really.  Otherwise it's all game.  Mind I never said 'banzai'. However my idea of flying alone on a PvE server online doesn't include orbiting my airfield.  Flying around doesn't mean 'banzai'.  Even if it's towards enemy lines.   

On 6/3/2021 at 1:43 PM, WelshZeCorgi said:

Yeah, following the thread here you're making two points that contradict each other. You want it to be fun and action packed but you also want to use "boring" tactics to basically win every fight you get into. All while being a one man show, which severely restricts your tactical options. There is a reason why 1 vs many stories where the 1 guy wins is so incredibly rare. And why there aren't real john wicks taking down entire gangs singlehandedly in gun and hand to hand fighting. At that point, calling it tactics is barely the correct term to throw around. At that point, it's just being a very good fighter pilot. Having great situational awareness at all times, being highly skilled in NOE flying, setting up ambushes and being able to accurately predict other player movments when you or AWACS do not have eyes on enemies, getting into the correct flows against your opponents, being able to consistently defeat 120s, R77s, ETs, ERs and 9Xs like they're nothing, killing your opponents quickly, not making any critical mistakes in BVR or WVR and flying the aircraft like it's just an extension of your body, never getting wing rock out of control, never stalling or over Ging the aircraft or otherwise departing controlled flight. At this point, you might as well practice till you can take off, AAR, fight and land in your sleep. Forget about tactics. 

 

Thanks for the post. You misubderstand my intentions. I was asking for tactics advice; and saying I wanted to improve my SA.

I didn't say any tactics were 'boring' just that I didn't plan to use them. As far as being a one man show I've been in squadrons etc but I'm talking about times where you cant always have people you know lined up to play.  

I welcome discussion about the topic etc as everyone else has been doing.  I'd ask you to skip the criticism on what you seem to think is my pointless post then - you aren't being forced to reply.

At the very least can you not put words in my mouth?  'dont want to use boring tactics?'. ' want to win every fight' ? The one thing I said I didn't want to do was legit hover over a friendly airfield using the SAMs.  


Edited by sublime
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