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Hind tempting, obviously, but what exactly are we going to do with it?


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Now that the Mi-24 is looking both pretty close to release and pretty itself to look at, I'm wondering exactly how I'm going to use it. At least from a SP perspective?

 

Obviously DCS has it's genesis in Black Shark, so there's something to say for Russian attack helo gamplay, but the Hind is unlike any release in the last few years. Creating missions/scenarios for the multi-role fast jets is easy. They have a wide range of mission roles and creating reasonably authentic standalone SP missions is going to be more straight forward than for the HIND.

 

For the jets, you can visualize and fly a simple SEAD / CAS / STRIKE / BARCAP etc and the result will be a close representation of the exact role the jet was designed for (DCS AI being a limiting factor). None of those missions rely on the combined arms nature of the Soviet doctrine the HIND was envisioned for. Currently the DCS AI and mission editor isn't capable of showcasing the HINDs role to the maximum extent. Add that to the fact passenger/air assault capability isn't coming till later in EA and it'll be a struggle to create realistic missions to fly the HIND that way it was supposed to be flown. 

 

The whole combined arms air assault doctrine is fundamental to the Mi-24 i.e. the idea that they would hover behind ridgelines and use ATGMs in the pure anti-tank role, ala Apache/Lynx etc is not really how they would be been deployed I believe. The idea of wide area suppression and shock tactics being more it's thing. I.e. difficult to coordinate in DCS.

 

After Hornet, Supercarrier, Raven One etc, how are we going to become immersed in this new role? Anyone else same concerns?

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Despite all their shiny toys, Hornet drivers can't capture airfields or FARPs in Blue Flag...   I see modules in terms of mission capability, not airquake potential. This is where the cool m

I agree, but the keywords being "full potential", I think we can sort something fairly entertaining with what we have.   Ideally, for helicopters in DCS we need a big improvement to infantry

The Hind is effectively a much, much less capable and survivable KA-50. I expect that unless it's being used in missions that are specifically tailored to it then what everyone will do with it is get

Posted (edited)
22 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

Now that the Mi-24 is looking both pretty close to release and pretty itself to look at, I'm wondering exactly how I'm going to use it. At least from a SP perspective?

 

Obviously DCS has it's genesis in Black Shark, so there's something to say for Russian attack helo gamplay, but the Hind is unlike any release in the last few years. Creating missions/scenarios for the multi-role fast jets is easy. They have a wide range of mission roles and creating reasonably authentic standalone SP missions is going to be more straight forward than for the HIND.

 

For the jets, you can visualize and fly a simple SEAD / CAS / STRIKE / BARCAP etc and the result will be a close representation of the exact role the jet was designed for (DCS AI being a limiting factor). None of those missions rely on the combined arms nature of the Soviet doctrine the HIND was envisioned for. Currently the DCS AI and mission editor isn't capable of showcasing the HINDs role to the maximum extent. Add that to the fact passenger/air assault capability isn't coming till later in EA and it'll be a struggle to create realistic missions to fly the HIND that way it was supposed to be flown. 

 

The whole combined arms air assault doctrine is fundamental to the Mi-24 i.e. the idea that they would hover behind ridgelines and use ATGMs in the pure anti-tank role, ala Apache/Lynx etc is not really how they would be been deployed I believe. The idea of wide area suppression and shock tactics being more it's thing. I.e. difficult to coordinate in DCS.

 

After Hornet, Supercarrier, Raven One etc, how are we going to become immersed in this new role? Anyone else same concerns?

 

Not me at least.

 

I'm very much looking forward to just learning it and flying it, I've definitely got a few things lined up that I want to try with it.

 

Apart from the F-14 (and well, anything HB teases), this is the module I'm most excited about. The only thing that would make it better (excluding base DCS World improvements) IMO is if we could get a Soviet Mi-24V further down the line.

 

I'm in the minority here, but in fact I probably won't take it into much actual combat for the most part, because just flying it and training with it should be fantastic. It should be said that my current set-up isn't very conducive to flying proper combat missions anyway.


Edited by Northstar98
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The Hind is unique in that it can both transport and fight. It is multi-role, from VIP transport to counter-insurgency or attack helicopter in on the modern battlefield.  Only imagination will restrict it.  Personally I have none so I will rely on others to create interesting missions. 

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I don't see how it's a new role. The Hind is an attack helicopter, just design missions like you would for the Ka-50, A-10, Viggen or Harrier.

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52 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

Now that the Mi-24 is looking both pretty close to release and pretty itself to look at, I'm wondering exactly how I'm going to use it. At least from a SP perspective?

...

After Hornet, Supercarrier, Raven One etc, how are we going to become immersed in this new role? 

Anyone else same concerns?

 

No, I'm not concerned at all .. for me the first few weeks are spent on learning to fly and fight on the new aircraft, for the next few weeks I will easily convert a lot of Ka-50 missions onto Hind missions, and after that I will undoubtedly edit my own missions ... and be immersed on them 👍

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I'm pumped as the guy said above I can't wait for the ton of ka50 content to be switched to hinds..  it all won't fit but most will.

I own the ka50. I don't know why but I just can't enjoy her. I just don't like her; nevermind it bothers me a bit knowing there's all of a handful irl and they use the ka52 much more which to me is more appealing. But the ka50 I just.. idk I don't like the looks or feel of her.  

The hind I've always had a love affair with. I'll be glad there's finally another attack helo.  I'm not even going to dignify the gazelle by going into it

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3 hours ago, AvroLanc said:

 

 

After Hornet, Supercarrier, Raven One etc, how are we going to become immersed in this new role? Anyone else same concerns?

 

Nope. Not for a heartbeat.

 

My interest first and foremost: "How cool would it be to fly one of those?" Having the plane or chopper or map fit into a specific scenario is of almost no importance to me. 

 

Just give me cool stuff to fly and I'll figure out what to do with it. :matrix:

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Some of the planes, but all of the maps!

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Sounds to me like ED is working on some kind of CTLD code like we currently have (it's a personal hunch, so don't quote me on it).  Until then CTLD will work perfectly fine to assist in the combined arms role you're looking for.  

As for me, I can't wait for this beast to show up.  Just to fly a new helo is going to be a thrill all its own.

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Thanks for the input guys, and the book recommendations. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited for flying the Hind for the first time as much as anyone. I'm sure it'll be awesome. Maybe it's my lack of insight into the tactics and employment of Mi-24 that's tempering my long term excitement. I find it easier to imagine the mission and 'day-in-the-life' of a western fast jet pilot, than a Soviet era gunship guy.

 

I guess after 3 years of pretty much constant Hornet / Tomcat / Viper / Supercarrier Hype the new focus on helos will see DCS turn down another fork for a while.

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Posted (edited)

From those books...

 

add high mountains, irregular troops / insurgents... and terror

 

IIRC from “The Bear’s Tears”, some AP mines and some napalm are also needed in the mix

 

For mission building, a 2+2 with a pair of Mi-8s. Hounds to the guns, drive fish to the nets.  Air mobile troops to flush out, or cut off. Hind to be the exterminator. The books are fiction, but they don’t paint the Hind as a “hide behind a tree” type helo - use it as a menacing terror weapon

 

(oh and throw in a few MANPADS to even things up)

 

well - that’s the stuff of Cold War legend anyway... good enough for me...!

 

ETA - comments re AI limitations feel like they will apply...

 

OPFOR AI infantry need to coded with a FEAR response


Edited by rkk01
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38 minutes ago, AvroLanc said:

Thanks for the input guys, and the book recommendations. Don't get me wrong, I'm excited for flying the Hind for the first time as much as anyone. I'm sure it'll be awesome. Maybe it's my lack of insight into the tactics and employment of Mi-24 that's tempering my long term excitement. I find it easier to imagine the mission and 'day-in-the-life' of a western fast jet pilot, than a Soviet era gunship guy.

 

I guess after 3 years of pretty much constant Hornet / Tomcat / Viper / Supercarrier Hype the new focus on helos will see DCS turn down another fork for a while.

 

Apologies if my response came off as curt, was just stating my focus as being on the flying fun factor above all.

 

I'm sure there are others who enjoy a more integrated experience. 

Some of the planes, but all of the maps!

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Check out how a AirLand warfare was designed to happen. 

You have two frontlines, each side has their forces against each other, ready to try to push through the other defense line. 

After that hole has been created, the second wave will come (positioned 5-10 km from the frontline) and push through the frontline in massive force attack. 

 

The helicopter forces in the Soviets were the Mi-8 and Mi-24. You have them to fly around the front line and engage the enemy second wave forces with hit and run tactics.

You have example 16 helicopters, four groups with a four Mi-24 in each. Each will attack 1-3 minutes after previous one, holding a 30 meter altitude that limits the possible AAA, MANPADS and SAM systems to under 2-3 km engagement ranges. With the Mi-24's they drop some special forces to area, their task is to keep hitting hard on some positions and withdraw quickly, so simple raid tactics with support from Mi-24's. Then you will pickup the special forces and withdraw from the area. 

 

For the frontline skirmish you would have similar, but there you have Mi-8's after the first Mi-24 attacks to land the ground troops.

First you layout a massive artillery salvos and rocket artillery. It can last an half an hour or even full hour. There basically is anything that survives the area.

Then comes the Mi-24's "sweep" the ground, attacking specific positions and troops. Well coordinated attack in multiple waves.

The Mi-24's keeps rotating the attack pattern and Mi-8's are capable deliver fire support as well if required, but their main task is to get ground forces to secure and hold the ground.

There are some Mi-24's left behind to guard the attack, they are special ones with the A-A missiles as they are there to engage enemy fighters, CAS planes and other attack helicopters. 

They guard the ground attack as well, from where the BMP's and BTR's are rolling in, with the support of MBT's at the rear. You can have 48 of BTR's coming, with 32 BMP's and 16 MBT's.

And this force can be focused to 1-2 km wide attack line.

 

To make a such mission, it is currently almost impossible in DCS. It requires such scripting as there is no AI to have logic to do such form.

Just alone to get a Mi-24 flight of four to approach at high speed, release 1/4 or 1/2 of their rockets and few missiles from max visual distance, roll off to same direction and return further behind own line, only to get in the new attack heading and timing to repeat it. And this to be done with multiple waves, until empty and get them to rearmed and back. Then time the Mi-8's arriving and land the troops and get them to continue fight. 

 

The Mi-8's landing is easy to do, the Mi-24's attack runs takes little more creativity, but with proper script timing it get to work acceptable manner. Utilizing "% of group alive" zones and such you get them to perform little differently. 

Using as well "attack ground" for rockets and such gets you achieve more visually, but to get the proper AI logic that they don't just waste ammunition on empty area is challenging. 

 

You would be part of the flight, maybe even flight commander. And hopefully we could get the full flight release their weapons when you do. So they fly the formation with you and when you release weapons, they do and that should saturate your aimed area with them too as they were flying in formation with you.

And then you would repeat that circulation few times, varying the direction.

 

All the common patrol flights and such are easily same as with any other. But to perform the massive battalion level attack as Mi-24's would be really performing nicely, that is challenging to do. 

I had one mission created months ago for the Mi-24V and Mi-8's, where I was to load troops and transport them to landing zone after Mi-24's and it was otherwise successful but the at the moment existing bug didn't allow all infantry mounting helicopter, part of the group just got stuck on ground and helicopter didn't leave unless commanded by timer. And that meant that 1/3 or 2/3 of the troops were transported to assault zone but once on the ground they started to run back to original place just to join with the guys left to pickup zone.

 

Another problem that just exist is that ground units doesn't know such thing as "single fire" or "aimed shot", and such tactics as "Shoot and reverse to cover" doesn't exist. No such Ai at all. So all the attacks were just furbal and over in few seconds.  So creating the full scale assault became just frustrating. 

 

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@AvroLanc You focus a lot on the roles the Mi-24 was designed to fulfill, but that's not what it ended up doing and what it became famous for. There was no World War 3 in Europe, but there were numerous local conflicts and counter insurgency operations where the Mi-24 was utilised extensively, often in quite creative ways. We can draw inspiration from these conflicts, especially since our Caucasus and Syria maps recreate the areas where some of them took place. Escorting convoys or Mi-8 flights, free hunts (also at night, using illumination flares), attacks against predetermined targets, supporting ground troops in battles, CSAR... There's variety to be had.

 

Not that Cold War gone hot scenarios wouldn't be fun, but they're not the only good fit for the Hind.

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Door gunners for me.

If I can get away with it, every time I will install two door gunners in the cabin firing out the sides as the chopper pushes into the battlefield..

 

The problem for the Hind is that the ground troops just do not feel fear, they stand their ground, keep calm and lay down the best firing I have ever seen from an assault rifle at 1000 metres.

 

And if you know assault rifles, you cannot hit sh"t at 600 metres!.... let alone a fast moving target.

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Posted (edited)

While they didn't use the P version. A pair of Mi-24Vs were also used extensively in Sierra Leone in the 90s by South African Mercenaries against rebel forces pretty much by themselves at 1 point. It was very much a low intensity conflict, with the Mi-24 only really using is 12.7mm and 55mm rockets, and window gunners with heavy machine guns (they only had a handfull of 80mm rockets) against mostly technicals, troops and outposts in the jungle.  At one point the pilot had to fight back an attack on Freetown at night by himself

 

Mi-24p's have been used in the Syrian conflict.

 

You can create a ton of third world conflict scenarios where the hind is going to at best be going up against some old light armor with heavy machine guns and maybe a odd Manpad. It's been used that way extensively throught the globe. It's perfect to run low cost asymetric warfare COIN fight scenarios.

 

Some people say the ground fire is too accurate, but flying the Ka-50 on cold war multiplayer it's still easily managed when attacking with rockets and guns with a bit of planning.

 

I think we'll get a interesting campaign out of the Mi-24P from ED


Edited by CrazyGman
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Posted (edited)

Maybe I'm not educated enough to add to this thread so please excuse my somewhat uneducated opinion, but I feel like improvement to ground troops is necessary for the Hind to reach its full potential. We need more infantry, we need terrorists, we need small militia groups and insurgents (I'm talking about the 3d models here) but mainly, we need better AI. AI that's scared, intimidated, AI that will retreat, maybe even surrender. We need AI that "thinks" (or at least feels like it thinks) and acts depending on their chances of victory. Ground unit behavior and ground combat needs to be improved upon greatly to get the most out of the Hind. Don't get me wrong, I'm still excited as ever to get to fly the damn thing but I feel like these are some features that need to be worked on. I've always felt this way, even a few years back. One day it'll all come true, I'm sure. I just felt the need to say this cause it's SUCH a necessity for even more immersive combat, especially for a multirole(-ish) chopper like the Hind. That would be the next step towards an all-round amazing battlefield simulation and it would greatly improve the Hind's versatility in combat.


Edited by Chapelmaggot
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Chapelmaggot said:

Maybe I'm not educated enough to add to this thread so please excuse my somewhat uneducated opinion, but I feel like improvement to ground troops is necessary for the Hind to reach its full potential. We need more infantry, we need terrorists, we need small militia groups and insurgents (I'm talking about the 3d models here) but mainly, we need better AI. AI that's scared, intimidated, AI that will retreat, maybe even surrender. We need AI that "thinks" (or at least feels like it thinks) and acts depending on their chances of victory. Ground unit behavior and ground combat needs to be improved upon greatly to get the most out of the Hind. Don't get me wrong, I'm still excited as ever to get to fly the damn thing but I feel like these are some features that need to be worked on. I've always felt this way, even a few years back. One day it'll all come true, I'm sure. I just felt the need to say this cause it's SUCH a necessity for even more immersive combat, especially for a multirole(-ish) chopper like the Hind. That would be the next step towards an all-round amazing battlefield simulation and it would greatly improve the Hind's versatility in combat.

 

Especially when you fly around the Syria Map, just fabulous possibilities if ED get the troop AI just right.

Ultimately, It will set us up perfectly for the NAM.

 


Edited by Rogue Trooper
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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, Rogue Trooper said:

Especially when you fly around the Syria Map, just fabulous possibilities if ED get the troop AI just right.

Ultimately, It will set us up perfectly for the NAM.

 

 

Exactly. While writing my post, all I could think of was buzzing around the Syria Map with my Hind, scouting around the place and engaging where it is necessary. Right now, air-to-ground can be pretty damn frustrating. Even in the Hornet I sometimes feel frustrated because the ground units just don't... Well... Do anything dynamic. They sit there and shoot. You hit them with a GBU. So they scatter. Now they sit there and shoot. You hit them with 2 Mavericks. They scatter. They sit there and shoot. I don't know... It just doesn't feel... Well... Human (I'm not sure if this is the right word but you know what I mean). And well... That's just the perspective from a Hornet. Now imagine being much closer to the action in the Hind and seeing the same damn behavior from ground units and even infantry. Sitting, shooting, dying, scattering, sitting, shooting, dying, scattering. It just keeps repeating. I don't know... It feels like a massive missed opportunity. Especially with infantry and close-quarter combat this kind of behavior ruins the authenticity of the experience and makes CAS, the Hind's primary role, a little stale.


Edited by Chapelmaggot
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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, Chapelmaggot said:

Exactly. While writing my post, all I could think of was buzzing around the Syria Map with my Hind, scouting around the place and engaging where it is necessary. Right now, air-to-ground can be pretty damn frustrating. Even in the Hornet I sometimes feel frustrated because the ground units just don't... Well... Do anything dynamic. They sit there and shoot. You hit them with a GBU. So they scatter. Now they sit there and shoot. You hit them with 2 Mavericks. They scatter. They sit there and shoot. I don't know... It just doesn't feel... Well... Human (I'm not sure if this is the right word but you know what I mean). And well... That's just the perspective from a Hornet. Now imagine being much closer to the action in the Hind and seeing the same damn behavior from ground units and even infantry. Sitting, shooting, dying, scattering, sitting, shooting, dying, scattering. It just keeps repeating. I don't know... It feels like a massive missed opportunity. Especially with infantry and close-quarter combat this kind of behavior ruins the authenticity of the experience and makes CAS, the Hind's primary role, a little stale.

 

I agree.

You should run like hell when the Hind pops up at 300KPH, especially if there is a second one 1.5 klicks on its rear covering the initial ingress.... its just pain.... terrible horrific pain!

 

ESPECIALLY when they are Ps!


Edited by Rogue Trooper
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47 minutes ago, Mower said:

Target for my Hornet...carry on

 

Hardly ... that's why I don't do Multiplayer 🙄

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31 minutes ago, Rudel_chw said:

 

Hardly ... that's why I don't do Multiplayer 🙄

Roll on the online dynamic campaign spread over a large land mass, lets see if they see us travelling through a large CAP area with Migs and Sus to contend with. 

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Posted (edited)

The financial costing of a peer to peer protracted DCS dynamic campaign will favour the Huey, Gazelle and Bo-105 chopper boys very nicely. 

 

It would be interesting how that hits the jet boys, for ground pounders it must surely be rockets and iron bombs that are the most cost effective.

 

Without doubt, the Hind must be right up there for cost effectiveness...... a lot of those bad boys sold globally.

 

DCS Dynamic Campaign is gonna be a whole new world of pain.


Edited by Rogue Trooper

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