early access F16 status

[Rmnsvn]

Hello,

Now that the hornet got most of its features done after the latest update, has any team members switched to the viper team or not yet? 
Can we hope for some increased pace of work for the 16?

Thanks!

[LieutenantFalcon]

We're still waiting for the Hornet to come out of EA. BIGNEWY said it's undergoing a FM evaluation (as is the F-16), so there might still be work left in that area. Not sure if they've already shuffled devs internally, I suppose the weapon devs don't work on the FM much so they wouldn't need to stay on the F-18 when weapons are done. Stay tuned for the newsletter announcement, I think that's where it will get announced Soon^TM

[BIGNEWY]

3 hours ago, Rmnsvn said:

Hello,

Now that the hornet got most of its features done after the latest update, has any team members switched to the viper team or not yet? 
Can we hope for some increased pace of work for the 16?

Thanks!

 

The Viper team is very busy with weapons currently, and hornet team are preparing for early access to finish. Once that has happened pace will increase on viper work. When we are ready to share more news we will do. 

 

thanks for your patience during early access. 

[falcon_120]

3 hours ago, Rmnsvn said:

Hello,

Now that the hornet got most of its features done after the latest update, has any team members switched to the viper team or not yet? 
Can we hope for some increased pace of work for the 16?

Thanks!

While true, still many bugs are open from the new realesed items. I guess everything will be iron out in the next 1 or 2 patches and after the viper will start to be more and more polished with each update.

[darkman222]

I did not want to participate in those discussions any more, but as this thread seems, unlike the other threads about that topic, rather calm and rational, I would like to give my final 50 cents about it.

Everybody knows about early access and nobody expects a 100 % complete Viper.

But as this game is about competition, what you would want to expect is a module that is competitive, like the real life counterpart.

Nobody wants a race car released with 3 wheels, but instead of the engineers addressing that issue as quick as possible, they are working on everything else, but not the obvious issues, leaving the race car behind and inferior.

Taking a dogfighter aircraft on a dogfight server, not able to lock on or to turn with other aircraft, it should be comparable with, is rather frustrating.

Here are a lot of grown up adult players willing to commit their time, learning an aircraft, but with the F16 its just no fun seeing it break more and more, and not getting fixed. Thus spending less and less time with DCS in general, eventually not buying other modules either.

 

I also dont understand why ED would be surprised about the simulation community's reaction the DCS F16s current state, being the most iconic and performance wise most well known aircraft, that was starring in many other simulations too.

And finally, the DCS F16 is the only jet module that currently has a serious "competitor" out there on the market, people are willing to migrate from, to DCS. Why does ED not understand that ED was expected to deliver with the DCS F16. And now ED just does the opposite.

Edited May 28, 2021 by darkman222

[CypherBlue]

Another point to add to this is, ED did admit that the release of the Viper was handled badly and they learned from it and they would be better. But a year has passed and rather than dedicate more resources to the Viper a team; a new group has been created or tasked for the Hind and the Apache. While I am excited for these platforms especially the apache, in my opinion the community would have rather seen more resources put on the Hornet and Viper to move the Hornet out of EA and progress faster on the Viper development. It is also upsetting to see the Viper used in so much promotional content by ED, especially in the newsletters but receives little development attention and there are long intervals for meaningful updates to it. 

Edited May 28, 2021 by CypherBlue

[Ignition]

I don't understand why it takes more than 4 months to add weapons that are already on the game, implemented years ago in other aircraft.

I know its not easy and its not copy paste BUT some code should be compatible for faster development, it was the whole point of doing the F16 after the F18 since their capabilities are "similar".

[Linx]

48 minutes ago, Ignition said:

I don't understand why it takes more than 4 months to add weapons that are already on the game, implemented years ago in other aircraft.

I know its not easy and its not copy paste BUT some code should be compatible for faster development, it was the whole point of doing the F16 after the F18 since their capabilities are "similar".

 

It takes so long because they are not actively working on it.
Patch notes tell the whole story.

[Hulkbust44]

I don't understand why it takes more than 4 months to add weapons that are already on the game, implemented years ago in other aircraft.
I know its not easy and its not copy paste BUT some code should be compatible for faster development, it was the whole point of doing the F16 after the F18 since their capabilities are "similar".

Putting the physical model of a bomb on the aircraft is not the issue, what takes time is the unique symbology. Look at the Hornet and Viper Litening pod. I am very confident the only commonality is the visual model and the laser model, everything else inside the aircraft is different.

Mobius708

[Ignition]

4 hours ago, Linx said:

 

It takes so long because they are not actively working on it.
Patch notes tell the whole story.

I know, but there're 2 active developers on the F16, and they were working since february with the jdam/jsow.

You don't need 30 people to work with the same thing to make it faster.

 

3 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Putting the physical model of a bomb on the aircraft is not the issue, what takes time is the unique symbology. Look at the Hornet and Viper Litening pod. I am very confident the only commonality is the visual model and the laser model, everything else inside the aircraft is different.

Mobius708
 

With more reason, HUD symbology is shared between A-10C F18 and F16. The symbols are different but the functionality is the same. The symbols shouldn't take months to do.

 

[Jack_Veil]

18 ore fa, darkman222 ha scritto:

I did not want to participate in those discussions any more, but as this thread seems, unlike the other threads about that topic, rather calm and rational, I would like to give my final 50 cents about it.

Everybody knows about early access and nobody expects a 100 % complete Viper.

But as this game is about competition, what you would want to expect is a module that is competitive, like the real life counterpart.

Nobody wants a race car released with 3 wheels, but instead of the engineers addressing that issue as quick as possible, they are working on everything else, but not the obvious issues, leaving the race car behind and inferior.

Taking a dogfighter aircraft on a dogfight server, not able to lock on or to turn with other aircraft, it should be comparable with, is rather frustrating.

Here are a lot of grown up adult players willing to commit their time, learning an aircraft, but with the F16 its just no fun seeing it break more and more, and not getting fixed. Thus spending less and less time with DCS in general, eventually not buying other modules either.

 

I also dont understand why ED would be surprised about the simulation community's reaction the DCS F16s current state, being the most iconic and performance wise most well known aircraft, that was starring in many other simulations too.

And finally, the DCS F16 is the only jet module that currently has a serious "competitor" out there on the market, people are willing to migrate from, to DCS. Why does ED not understand that ED was expected to deliver with the DCS F16. And now ED just does the opposite.

 

Totally agreed!! 

Personal Add:

Meanwhile the Viper's update still motionless, they add mi24, apache and anything else.

So, like Darkman222, I dont understand why ED would be surprised about the community's reaction the DCS F16s current state.. 

[Greg B]

10 hours ago, Ignition said:

I know, but there're 2 active developers on the F16, and they were working since february with the jdam/jsow.

You don't need 30 people to work with the same thing to make it faster.

 

With more reason, HUD symbology is shared between A-10C F18 and F16. The symbols are different but the functionality is the same. The symbols shouldn't take months to do.

 

Nope, but those extra people could be used to progress other things on the Viper. As said before, some early access pigs are more equal than others..... 

Yes we understand that its early access and when the Horner (also in early access) is complete, attention will shift, and that particular gem is trotted out on a regular basis, but the shift to the pro-Hornet focus was made after the Viper was released for early access purchase.

That was not a particularly great move for the module and with the obvious focus on yet more products A-10 upgrade, Hind, Apache, etc. it does not provide parity or confidence in the development decision making process, for those of us who purchased the module in the sensible assumption that it would progress at the same pace as the Hornet, but with that initial delta lag of course remaining sort of constant. Yes, its a business, yes its a balancing act for ED, but no, its not been a great rollout process.

 

I also note that previous comments/threads regarding this have been removed, along with likes. Funny that.

Edited May 29, 2021 by Greg B

[b0bl00i]

ED, please be more transparent what you are doing and planning for the Viper. Give us a roadmap for 2021.

[greenmamba]

3 hours ago, Jack_Veil said:

Totally agreed!! 

Personal Add:

Meanwhile the Viper's update still motionless, they add mi24, apache and anything else.

So, like Darkman222, I dont understand why ED would be surprised about the community's reaction the DCS F16s current state.. 

 That is what i do not get ... why ED is surprised about the communty being tired, we get told something and we see something else. Frankly seeing that now they work on making the MI-24 and Apache into early access just got me even more upset, i totally feel like the F-16 is a bait for other modules. 

Edited May 29, 2021 by greenmamba

[Dronson]

New module (Hind, Apache) - new income. Since we have already paid for f-16 - ED do not have lot motivation for fast progress on Viper.

[Steel Jaw]

23 hours ago, darkman222 said:

the DCS F16 is the only jet module that currently has a serious "competitor" out there on the market, people are willing to migrate from, to DCS. Why does ED not understand that ED was expected to deliver with the DCS F16. And now ED just does the opposite.

 

That would be FalconBMS.  Why not say it?  And, no, no serious migration from that community to the DCS F16 will ever happen.  I know:  Ive been in the community since the very beginning circa 1998.  DX11-quality grafix and VR is coming to BMS.

[norbot]

1 hour ago, Dronson said:

New module (Hind, Apache) - new income. Since we have already paid for f-16 - ED do not have lot motivation for fast progress on Viper.

It's our own fault. We should just not buy the modules in EA, but only when they are ready. Then the manufacturer is also motivated to work on the completion.

[Helo_]

[New player here] Would somebody please give a short explanation on what exactly is the issue with the F-16?

I have read several times that it seems not to be the good rate fighter that you would expect it to be -- Is that a confirmed flaw in the flight model?

 

Could it just be that the other aircraft in DCS tend to perform better than they should?

I also have the F/A-18 and noticed that it cruises much faster than I would expect from such a rather draggy fighter..

 

[TobiasA]

vor 4 Stunden schrieb norbot:

It's our own fault. We should just not buy the modules in EA, but only when they are ready. Then the manufacturer is also motivated to work on the completion.

 

Without buying early access, we wouldn't see many advanced modules. 

That being said, I will neither buy the Hind or Apache until they show that they actually care about the F-16 instead of pushing new modules without finishing what they started. 

 

vor 4 Stunden schrieb Helo_:

[New player here] Would somebody please give a short explanation on what exactly is the issue with the F-16?

I have read several times that it seems not to be the good rate fighter that you would expect it to be -- Is that a confirmed flaw in the flight model?

 

Could it just be that the other aircraft in DCS tend to perform better than they should?

I also have the F/A-18 and noticed that it cruises much faster than I would expect from such a rather draggy fighter..

 

The flight model is off at slow speed, basically everything below Mach 0.5. There are plenty of discussions about it with clear proof that the current flight model is underperforming. 

 

But: These points are known by ED and I am pretty sure that they do care. Because it affects DCS as a whole. Like what would probably happen if you could pull a large part of the community of "that other sim"? But... Those guys over there (I fly there as well) don't even take DCS seriously. It is currently not an option for most people. So they won't buy the module, no maps, no campaigns, no other planes. 

Until DCS proves to be able to provide the same amount of fidelity and depth. And I am pretty sure that ED knows that. 

The F-16 is "burned" to a certain degree and as of now, it is a missed chance. 

I see how other developers handle early access and it makes me believe in the concept as such but as for ED seeing is believing. I'd say we wait for the hornet being out of early access and see what happens. I decided to give ED a chance with the compromise that one module where half of the stuff isn't working is enough. 

Everyone deserves a second chance. 

However, I can totally understand the frustration about seeing the Hind and Apache being made without any real improvement made on the F-16. And I share it to a large extent.

Edited May 29, 2021 by TobiasA

[Ignition]

6 hours ago, Dronson said:

New module (Hind, Apache) - new income. Since we have already paid for f-16 - ED do not have lot motivation for fast progress on Viper.

 

I don't believe this is true since the F18 is older and they are very dedicated to this module since a year now. The problem is they are focusing in one thing at a time while releasing multiple products in a short time frame.

[WHOGX5]

1 hour ago, Ignition said:

 

I don't believe this is true since the F18 is older and they are very dedicated to this module since a year now. The problem is they are focusing in one thing at a time while releasing multiple products in a short time frame.

No, the problem is that ED lied to us so they could take our money, then leaving us hamstrung and transitioning to a doctrine of gaslighting DCS F-16C customers by going "you knew what you were getting yourself into", "you shouldn't have bought EA if you can't cope with it", yada yada yada., completely ignoring all the assurances they themselves made before launch. Yes, everything is subject to change but I think we can all agree that putting an entire module and its customers on the back burner isn't what's commonly intended by the phrase "subject to change".

 

I mean, ED must have known for sure that the F-16C was the most awaited DCS module of all time. It is after all the most numerous and widely flown fixed wing military aircraft in the world. It was easy money. Fast forward to the present day: profits have been made and now ED is adding a broken weapon system, five bug fixes and some localization changes every quarter so they can say that the F-16C module technically isn't abandoned. Then, that they decide to prioritize pouring resources into the Mi-24 and AH-64 is just icing on the cake.

[greenmamba]

33 minutes ago, WHOGX5 said:

No, the problem is that ED lied to us so they could take our money, then leaving us hamstrung and transitioning to a doctrine of gaslighting DCS F-16C customers by going "you knew what you were getting yourself into", "you shouldn't have bought EA if you can't cope with it", yada yada yada., completely ignoring all the assurances they themselves made before launch. Yes, everything is subject to change but I think we can all agree that putting an entire module and its customers on the back burner isn't what's commonly intended by the phrase "subject to change".

 

I mean, ED must have known for sure that the F-16C was the most awaited DCS module of all time. It is after all the most numerous and widely flown fixed wing military aircraft in the world. It was easy money. Fast forward to the present day: profits have been made and now ED is adding a broken weapon system, five bug fixes and some localization changes every quarter so they can say that the F-16C module technically isn't abandoned. Then, that they decide to prioritize pouring resources into the Mi-24 and AH-64 is just icing on the cake.

 

Very well said. 

[deadpool]

Screenshot while it's here

[Steel Jaw]

Sure alot of whining happening here.  I own this on EA.  I also own the Hornet and it needs to be finished FIRST (nearly there).

[Xavven]

9 hours ago, Mower said:

 

That would be FalconBMS.  Why not say it?  And, no, no serious migration from that community to the DCS F16 will ever happen.  I know:  Ive been in the community since the very beginning circa 1998.  DX11-quality grafix and VR is coming to BMS.

 

Because calling it by name instead of using the term "that other sim" gets your post deleted. At least as of a few months ago mods were still doing that.