How Tough is the Hind Going to be?

[Czechnology]

As it says in the topic, how tough is the Hind going to be in game?

I know they are planning on releasing a more basic damage model on release, but I was wondering how much the hind's ability to resist damage is going to be simulated.

Obviously not expecting it to be able to shrug off everything, but is a stinger going to be a one shot? Will a single ZSU round put us out of commission? Will we be actually resistant to 12.7 MG rounds? Obviously taking cannon rounds or MANPAD hits is likely going to force a landing or an RTB, it's more a question of is the model actually going to be representing the fact that the Hind could shrug some of this punishment off.

[Frag]

Nobody knows but I can assure you that ED will at least put in place some basic damage model before the release. They got SERIOUSLY slammed by their customers when they released an indestructible F-16. I doubt that they will do that error twice.

[BeastyBaiter]

Don't overestimate how tough aircraft are in real life. The odds of an aircraft surviving a missile hit are vanishingly small. A near miss is a maybe, depending on angles, how close and blind luck. 12.7mm rounds should in theory, be stopped by some of the armor plate at long range (for 12.7mm) but of course, there are lots of vital things with no armor. The purpose of armor in most ground attack aircraft is to protect against handheld weapons, such as 5.56 and 7.62x39. And even then it's to protect the crew and the most vital systems so that they can hopefully limp home or ditch so that they can fight another day. There are of course many parts of an aircraft, regardless of type, which are just empty space. These can take lots of hits and do a whole lot of nothing. But it's hard to riddle those areas with holes without eventually hitting some other, more vital area.

[Czechnology]

44 minutes ago, BeastyBaiter said:

Don't overestimate how tough aircraft are in real life. The odds of an aircraft surviving a missile hit are vanishingly small. A near miss is a maybe, depending on angles, how close and blind luck. 12.7mm rounds should in theory, be stopped by some of the armor plate at long range (for 12.7mm) but of course, there are lots of vital things with no armor. The purpose of armor in most ground attack aircraft is to protect against handheld weapons, such as 5.56 and 7.62x39. And even then it's to protect the crew and the most vital systems so that they can hopefully limp home or ditch so that they can fight another day. There are of course many parts of an aircraft, regardless of type, which are just empty space. These can take lots of hits and do a whole lot of nothing. But it's hard to riddle those areas with holes without eventually hitting some other, more vital area.

I know it's not going to be an invulnerable, literal flying tank, but I've always heard "resistant to 12.7mm from all angles" when people refer to it.

Obviously a difference between resistant and immune. I don't expect it to be immune to anything, I'm anticipating Hinds are going to be dying like frogs in a blender at the start of their release, but how capable is it going to be of actually flexing that renowed "resistance" to enemy fire and limping home rather than just dropping out of the sky at the first few rounds.

[CrazyGman]

3 hours ago, Czechnology said:

I know it's not going to be an invulnerable, literal flying tank, but I've always heard "resistant to 12.7mm from all angles" when people refer to it.

Obviously a difference between resistant and immune. I don't expect it to be immune to anything, I'm anticipating Hinds are going to be dying like frogs in a blender at the start of their release, but how capable is it going to be of actually flexing that renowed "resistance" to enemy fire and limping home rather than just dropping out of the sky at the first few rounds.

Yeah that resistant to 12.7 mm is a bit of a a exageration. In the end it's an aircraft made of mostly light metals like all aircraft and while some like the Mi-24 and A-10 and P-47 are advertised as being able to shrug off hits, that all depends on a number of factors and most of the time it's just the redundancies of the aircraft that allow it to take some damage and limp home. 

 

It will probably be as resiliant as the Ka-50 is currenty in game

Edited May 21, 2021 by CrazyGman

[Apok]

Tail has no protection. Hits in cargo area should not bring it down. Cockpit and engines are protected to some degree. Manpad will probably bring it down as any other choper. My guess it will limp home being shreeded with bullets. At least he did in rl.

[randomTOTEN]

The KA-50 and A-10C are also aircraft that are built tough. They can both take some amounts of damage and survive. In my view it doesn't matter. Don't get shot. Don't make a flight plan that includes getting shot. Armor and system redundancies should not be exploited, but instead used to recover from being shot when you didn't plan to get shot, and were unable to avoid getting shot.

Don't get shot.

[sublime]

5 hours ago, randomTOTEN said:

The KA-50 and A-10C are also aircraft that are built tough. They can both take some amounts of damage and survive. In my view it doesn't matter. Don't get shot. Don't make a flight plan that includes getting shot. Armor and system redundancies should not be exploited, but instead used to recover from being shot when you didn't plan to get shot, and were unable to avoid getting shot.

Don't get shot.

This.  If you're planning on getting hit at all your doing it wrong

[Apok]

Lets be honest. Most ppl will run full speed at bunch of ground targets, to see what happens. 

[Lurker]

17 minutes ago, Apok said:

Lets be honest. Most ppl will run full speed at bunch of ground targets, to see what happens. 

 

Considering the omnipotence of AI ground units and their gunners, I don't think there is much left to the imagination there

[CoBlue]

On 5/21/2021 at 7:59 AM, Apok said:

Tail has no protection. Hits in cargo area should not bring it down. Cockpit and engines are protected to some degree. Manpad will probably bring it down as any other choper. My guess it will limp home being shreeded with bullets. At least he did in rl.

Afaik the engines are unprotected. So it will be pretty much like the Mi-8, if engines get hits they will be damaged easily.

[GGTharos]

On 5/20/2021 at 3:59 PM, Czechnology said:

but is a stinger going to be a one shot? Will a single ZSU round put us out of commission?

 

Is a stinger a one shot IRL?   The answer is yes.

 

On 5/20/2021 at 3:59 PM, Czechnology said:

Will we be actually resistant to 12.7 MG rounds? Obviously taking cannon rounds or MANPAD hits is likely going to force a landing or an RTB, it's more a question of is the model actually going to be representing the fact that the Hind could shrug some of this punishment off.

 

Canon rounds yep, you might be looking at an RTB.  Any missile hit at all is very likely bringing the heli down in one go.

[Harlikwin]

On 5/21/2021 at 7:07 AM, Apok said:

Lets be honest. Most ppl will run full speed at bunch of ground targets, to see what happens. 

 

I mean yes, this was how it was done IRL. 

 

Maybe ED will be forced to fix their absurdly accurate (non radar guided) gunnery models...

Edited May 23, 2021 by Harlikwin

[BonerCat]

Would love to see that
It's quite ridiculous how accurate Ivan is with his twin 23mm on the back of a truck

[Hammer1-1]

IRL - Mi8 took a missile hit from an Igla manpad and kept flying.

IDCS - Armored Mi8 can barely take 7.62 before being chopped up.

 

DCS kinda disappoints with its damage model/modelling, so dont expect TOO much.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[GGTharos]

You found the one video where the heli doesn't go down after the MANPADS hit.  Everything else shows destruction - I'm not going to post a slew of such videos, but this is very easy to google.

 

Next step is to find some study showing heli survivability vs. missile hits IRL.

[Hammer1-1]

Well for the most part, my comment still is true as there have been tests where the armored version in DCS got chopped to pieces with 7.62 almost immediately. Obviously it depends largely where the missiles/shell fragments hit, and it quite obviously hit the armored exhaust port on the side which absorbed the impact and damage. Dont make me reference a Grim Reapers video, for the love of god PLEASE...

Edited May 23, 2021 by Hammer1-1

[GGTharos]

I won't speculate on how much 'luck' is built into the entire experience of getting hit with a DCS missile and if it represents reality very well, but the fact is that you shouldn't expect to keep flying after a MANPADS hit.

 

But yes I agree, the protection against small arms is somewhat weak.  Different things, different expected outcomes - one works as it should, the other probably isn't.

 

Edit:  A study showing just how lethal MANPADS are https://media.defense.gov/2019/Apr/11/2002115503/-1/-1/0/37MANPADS.PDF

They don't always hit, but when they do it's bad news.   And note that defenses against them aren't about armor or anything else, they're about not getting hit.

Edited May 23, 2021 by GGTharos

[Harlikwin]

52 minutes ago, BonerCat said:

Would love to see that
It's quite ridiculous how accurate Ivan is with his twin 23mm on the back of a truck

 

I've been saying for years that ED needs to add the "A-team" gunnery option (they never hit anyone)...

[Pikey]

You guys need to play more WW2 multiplayer to see what will be happening to damage modelling. Sure its going to take some time, but right now they have the warbirds done. After its done properly, then you get to see damage of systems instead of health bar based damage. That will mean the ability for the location of the shot to have a bearing on the survivability and these threads become different (and better) questions.

[Hammer1-1]

Yeah, its almost ridiculously hard to bring down an aircraft with BMG .50 cal.

[Thumper1911]

The hind is invisible.  Thats about as tough as it gets.  Year of the invisible helicopter

[Fri13]

3 hours ago, GGTharos said:

You found the one video where the heli doesn't go down after the MANPADS hit.  Everything else shows destruction - I'm not going to post a slew of such videos, but this is very easy to google.

 

Next step is to find some study showing heli survivability vs. missile hits IRL.

 

It is not just one video.

There are hundreds of cases where missile exploded near, took out another engine or damaged some systems.

 

It is anyways RTB if not landing as soon as possible.

 

But there are as well cases where single explosion took the helo down as burning, it is just more dramatic and people hears those more.

[GGTharos]

Show the hundreds of cases.

[Fri13]

4 hours ago, BonerCat said:

Would love to see that
It's quite ridiculous how accurate Ivan is with his twin 23mm on the back of a truck

 

It is ridiculously easy with ZU-23-2 to hit a relatively slow moving target. It doesn't matter is it a fighter or helicopter if it is flying toward you, it is easy to shoot down.

 

If it is a flying in a beam, then it becomes far more challenging against a fighter as you need so long advance that it is no use. 

Against a helo that moves < 100 m/s it is possible, but > 100 m/s plane and it becomes again wishful thinking. As targets that flies over 200 m/s (380 knots) you have 0.2% change to hit a thing. So pretty save to attack utilizing speed.

 

Self-defense is about that, self-defense. It is not about shooting out low level flying objects around you as AI does in DCS. It is just to deny them from attacking you, so flying toward you. Just get the threat get altitude and in MANPADS or radars range.

 

A simple 12.7 HMG does that amazingly well for couple km ranges, but don't expect to hit a fast mover flying around you. 

But they can't do anything to you either by that way. If they want to attack at you, they need to turn nose toward you and that is when they are very vulnerable for self-defense weapons like 12.7 mm.

Take a ZU-23-2 and it will shred them to pieces, and if not that, then at least force them to brake off the attack and deny them from attack.

 

This is why AI in DCS is so stupid that they waste ammunition for flying targets that just goes around them. And there AI has this magical perfect, even a 30-50 degree lead capability.

 

There is a reason why the frontal sector is only armored, like in Mi-24 the bubble canopy is just plastic that normal bullet goes through, but the flat front glass is armored against 12.7 mm or even 23 mm HEI.

The cockpits armor plates are as well around the pilots but only against low altitude bullets, they will come in so high angle that they will ricochet from it. 

 

A tail boom is behind everything, it is well protected by it location but get good hits there from a side and you have change to rip it off.

 

Changes for anyone hitting you with a small arms weapons, HMG or even 20-30 mm cannon from a side is very small, requiring you to be slow and close.

 

But that is the cold war era.

 

Now you have like CV9040 (or even CV9030) with automatic TV/FLIR tracking with laser rangefinder and it is almost 100% first burst kill for few kilometers range.

But those things needs to know from where the attack comes so they can have barrels pointing a proper position to begin.

 

This is why you don't do hovering attacks as you are too easy target, and why "pop-up slide" tactic is in use even for west, where Russia never thought about going for hovering attacks.

 

In a forrested areas engament ranges are usually below 2000 meters at 100 meter altitude. Go lower and you are quickly below 1200 meters. Go to tree tops level and you are mostly under 500 meters. There you are not utilizing much targeting on ground targets, but neither do they engage you so easily. 

 

This is the DCS problem that people place units at open where anyone can engage them from 40 nmi if so wanted. While in reality you do not expose your forces to other long range weapon, you force them to come close for knive fight. And DCS doesn't support that almost at all than in few places.

 

If someone wants to advance over wide open area, they will die if there is enemy waiting them to do so.

 

 

6 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

Show the hundreds of cases.

Show that was the only video....