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Mi-24p Armament


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10 hours ago, [TF-108] Aero said:

@Speedy4GT Yeah, if you aren't familiar with the Russian gun pods, the GUV_1_GUN shown in the screenshot in the first post is a gun pod.  It has 2x 7.62mm  guns, with a single 12.7mm (basically 50 cal.) gun in the middle.  The GUV_1_AP30 is a variant of this pod that launches 30mm grenades instead (correct me if I'm wrong, this is second hand knowledge).

In fact, someone already posted this about 3 messages before yours, whoops    : P

 

Only thing I'd add to this is that both the 7.62mm and the 12.7mm guns are Gatling guns, meaning you get a .50 cal that shoots at ridiculous rates of fire.

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At least the way they are implemented in Mi-8, you need to choose either the 12.7 or 7.62s before you fire, you can't shoot all of them at the same time. which makes sense after all, trajectories would be fairly different, and recoil would be ludicrous I guess.

 

But yeah, the pod comes with 1 4 barreled 12.7mm YakB mounted centrally, and to its either side two GShG 4 barrel 7.62x54mm gatlings a well. A lot of dakka, yes, but they are "just" bullets in the end, and work against soft targets, with 12.7 being able to do a little against light armor too. Problem is, you need to get direct hits even against infantry. And from what I've tested a few months ago, infantry in DCS will merrily take between 4-6 7.62x54R before calling it the day. So in a helicopter that is equipped with GSh-30-2K, gunpods won't open up anything new tactically, and would be only for fun and novelty (not that there's anything wrong with that!)

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8 hours ago, WinterH said:

infantry in DCS will merrily take between 4-6 7.62x54R before calling it the day

This was one of the reasons why the development team working on the Mi-24 decided to forego the PK on the Mi-8 - you lose a lot of visibility for a gun that will be shooting at bullet sponges, no point doing that until there's a rework of how infantry and bullets interact.

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22 hours ago, WinterH said:

At least the way they are implemented in Mi-8, you need to choose either the 12.7 or 7.62s before you fire, you can't shoot all of them at the same time. which makes sense after all, trajectories would be fairly different, and recoil would be ludicrous I guess.

 

But yeah, the pod comes with 1 4 barreled 12.7mm YakB mounted centrally, and to its either side two GShG 4 barrel 7.62x54mm gatlings a well. A lot of dakka, yes, but they are "just" bullets in the end, and work against soft targets, with 12.7 being able to do a little against light armor too. Problem is, you need to get direct hits even against infantry. And from what I've tested a few months ago, infantry in DCS will merrily take between 4-6 7.62x54R before calling it the day. So in a helicopter that is equipped with GSh-30-2K, gunpods won't open up anything new tactically, and would be only for fun and novelty (not that there's anything wrong with that!)

For some Afghanistan scenario that would be probably crazy, but with proliferation of the body armor - rifle rounds fired from hundreds of meters are already not that impressive.

Even ordinary car is not inevitably disabled by a few rifle not even 12,7/.50 bullets unless they really hit i.e. engine compartment. I may be wrong but those gunpods were IRL good for really soft targets like some trucks (with question if unguided rockets are not far better option) or for suppressive fire - that is quite difficult to model in the game.

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1 hour ago, mungo13 said:

For some Afghanistan scenario that would be probably crazy, but with proliferation of the body armor - rifle rounds fired from hundreds of meters are already not that impressive.

Even ordinary car is not inevitably disabled by a few rifle not even 12,7/.50 bullets unless they really hit i.e. engine compartment. I may be wrong but those gunpods were IRL good for really soft targets like some trucks (with question if unguided rockets are not far better option) or for suppressive fire - that is quite difficult to model in the game.

Honestly, this is not really much of an argument in my opinion. At best case scenario, dude wearing body armor vs the ones that are not should be separate entities on mission editor. And chest plates often don't have full coverage I think, most of the body would still be exposed, and armor piercing .30 cal rounds still can be a threat. The test I did was against insurgent with AKM, I'd wager to say those dudes aren't usually in much of body armor... and for the great majority of the periods represented in DCS, pretty much no one wore body protection.

 

Tested the 7.62x51 NATO rounds too BTW, it was even more ridiculous at 6-9 hits per soldier... ouch.

At first Bignewy said he will forward it to devs, but his follow up was pretty sad and discouraging, basically said this is apparently intented behaviour otherwise there wouldn't be firefights between infantry. Yeah... infantry that miss each other from point blank, IF they actually fire :), let alone at meaningful ranges :).

 

This is a sore thumb in DCS' damage modeling, one of many. But I've admitted "it is what it is", probably will be fixed at some point down the line.

 

Edit: btw, body armor is still not much of a thing in most armies of the world, especially conscription based ones, not to mention insurgent/terrorist/guerilla etc sort of militant units.


Edited by WinterH
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3 hours ago, WinterH said:

It's already at least 2 years ago when I read article describing concerns of the US military regarding rising amount of solid equipment used by insurgents in Iraq and others - from body armor to night vision. Thus greatly reducing the equipment gap.

Does DCS model use some advanced terminal ballistic modelling when it came to the firing against human body? Because flesh wound to the limb by stable AP round from 500 m is hardly as disabling as full velocity 5.56 NATO from point blank that tumbles and disintegrates upon impact. Even there, there are complains about insufficient disabling effects.

When you look at battle reports i.e. from Afghanistan - battles raging for hours, hundreds of rounds fired by every single soldier - yet few one hit, or hurt or even killed. And even if - those total casualties are often caused by explosive ordnance from air and artillery support not small arms fire.

So how to mimic infantry action in predominantly flight-sim game without killing CPU? As infantry would look after every cover to shield itself and try to flush its enemy with weight of the fire?

 

So far I am OK when sims i.e. for cars/trucks use rather hit-point damage model than trying to use some hardcore realistic one - especially when rifle-caliber weapons are used.

 

Anyway I've just pre-ordered Hind, so I'll see myself when it is out. I was always "fixed-wings guy", thus regardless that I have Mi-8 and Ka-50, I've never flown them but Hind is legend that served in our air forces - and I like those old-fashioned brutes.

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4 hours ago, WinterH said:

Edit: btw, body armor is still not much of a thing in most armies of the world, especially conscription based ones, not to mention insurgent/terrorist/guerilla etc sort of militant units.

 

 

I'm not convinced that's true anymore in the last 5 years. Sure, most pics of foreign troops don't show armor. But the pics might be 10 years old. Or if current pics, usually show some sort of training, where the wearing of armor is simply not done. Often, armor is not worn in training due to body sweat causing deterioration of the ballistic fibres, greatly reducing it's effectiveness in just months of continual use. Sure, live fire ex, grenade range training, real combined assaults, you wear the kevlar. But much of the time you just don't, you save it for when it's needed.

 

The poorer combatants now have access to very inexpensive armor made by lower cost manufacturers. So that vest made in Thailand might not be as good as the Second Chance vest, but it probably works decent, and probably so cheap to buy that average insurgent can be equiped that way. Another factor is that insurgent finances, budgets is likely going up. Maybe there is additional hidden funding from angry superpowers and middle powers. Call it "Proxy Cold War 2.0" or something. 

 

Insurgents realised that battle effectiveness, survivability and success in general is often tied to morale, and if your odds of survival go up, so does effectiveness and success. So instead of sending 20 into battle with nothing but an AK and two mags, they now send 10 into battle with four mags, body armor, more tactical radios, night vision. Half as many men, but more results and higher morale. This seems to be the trend.

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Still, DCS represents the mid-2000s. For those keeping score, it was 15 years ago. Time files, doesn't it? 🙂 

 

Yeah, body armor is much more common now, with what was top-notch systems back then being available to poorer countries and even sometimes insurgents. There's also plenty of commercial solutions on the market by now, both civilian and military. But this is a recent development, and by the time DCS is set, it wasn't the case.

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Posted (edited)

This is like asking “how can we use the Huey” yet it’s a well loved and highly used module.

 

Even the stock campaign that comes with the Huey is pretty fun and quite long compared to others. Flying as a newguy UN pilot doing simple navigation to eventually being involved in several cas missions against insurgents and having to extract a friendly ground unit under fire. Then your character becomes the seasoned pilot. It’s good stuff.

 

Heck you could have an almost identical campaign as a hind pilot.

 

And then I’m sure the guys who do the inferno mission generator will add the hind in an update and generate a bunch of troop and light vehicle splodey missions

 

edit: I might have accidentally posted this to the wrong thread 😝 


Edited by Relic
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Posted (edited)

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Hind module may end up one of the most popular, someplace in the top 5. Assuming no show-stoppers of course. But I think the last problem we'll have is missions and campaigns, as I think we'll end up with lots of those just out of popularity.  From both user made missions, but also professional campaigns too.


Edited by Rick50
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Posted (edited)
On 6/1/2021 at 5:07 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

Still, DCS represents the mid-2000s. For those keeping score, it was 15 years ago. Time files, doesn't it? 🙂 

 

If you only care about BLUFOR modules, sure.

 

The entire rest of DCS is mostly mid-to-late Cold War, with the most coherent era being WWII.

 

On 6/3/2021 at 5:44 PM, Rick50 said:

I have a sneaking suspicion that the Hind module may end up one of the most popular, someplace in the top 5. Assuming no show-stoppers of course. But I think the last problem we'll have is missions and campaigns, as I think we'll end up with lots of those just out of popularity.  From both user made missions, but also professional campaigns too.

 

I mean, for me, and I'm probably going to get assassinated in my sleep for saying this, I'm more excited about the Hind than the Apache.


Edited by Northstar98
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5 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

mean, for me, and I'm probably going to get assassinated in my sleep for saying this, I'm more excited about the Hind than the Apache.

 

Same, the Apache will be great, that's for sure, but just the thought of having to assign 50 different buttons to my poor little joystick that only has a handful makes me not as excited for it.

 

Besides, it's the Hind, an absolute legend, and I kinda feel disconnected from the Apache, having grown up in Central/Eastern Europe.

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Just now, Morrov said:

Same, the Apache will be great, that's for sure, but just the thought of having to assign 50 different buttons to my poor little joystick that only has a handful makes me not as excited for it.

 

Besides, it's the Hind, an absolute legend, and I kinda feel disconnected from the Apache, having grown up in Central/Eastern Europe.

 

I also feel that the Hind will be completed much sooner.

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Modules I own: F-14A/B, F/A-18C, Supercarrier, F-16CM, AJS-37, F-5E-3, MiG-21bis, Ka-50, A-10C (+ A-10C II), UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, P-47D, P-51D, FC3, MiG-15bis, Yak-52, CA, C-101, Hawk

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3 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

The entire rest of DCS is mostly mid-to-late Cold War, with the most coherent era being WWII.

Again, mid-2000s, REDFOR really was overwhelmingly using late Cold War assets. The good stuff that the Russians made during that period went to India, which is not really featured in DCS. LOMAC was made in 2003, and featured a pretty realistic lineup for what was, back then, the current state of affairs. The planeset mostly carried over to DCS, which is particularly obvious when looking at many of the AI models.

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16 hours ago, Morrov said:

Same, the Apache will be great, that's for sure, but just the thought of having to assign 50 different buttons to my poor little joystick that only has a handful makes me not as excited for it.

 

Besides, it's the Hind, an absolute legend, and I kinda feel disconnected from the Apache, having grown up in Central/Eastern Europe.

 

Having grown up in Canada - we get a lot of English language books from the U.S. - which means that there is the opposite problem sometimes, boredom. Whereas ex-Soviet technology almost always has details which are unexpected and surprising...

 

...also, I like analogue systems 🙂

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1 hour ago, KillerDog said:

Will we get Exhaust IR Suppressor Option?

 

The Mi-8 has them, you can fly with or without them, I'd guess the 24 will have that option too

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On 5/29/2021 at 12:23 PM, WinterH said:

At least the way they are implemented in Mi-8, you need to choose either the 12.7 or 7.62s before you fire, you can't shoot all of them at the same time. which makes sense after all, trajectories would be fairly different, and recoil would be ludicrous I guess.

 

But yeah, the pod comes with 1 4 barreled 12.7mm YakB mounted centrally, and to its either side two GShG 4 barrel 7.62x54mm gatlings a well. A lot of dakka, yes, but they are "just" bullets in the end, and work against soft targets, with 12.7 being able to do a little against light armor too. Problem is, you need to get direct hits even against infantry. And from what I've tested a few months ago, infantry in DCS will merrily take between 4-6 7.62x54R before calling it the day. So in a helicopter that is equipped with GSh-30-2K, gunpods won't open up anything new tactically, and would be only for fun and novelty (not that there's anything wrong with that!)

 

Hi if you look closely in the Unguided Weapons video, you can see that you have the option to fire both at the same time, you can choose so in the armament panel 🙂

 

image.png

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28 minutes ago, Bedouin said:

 

Hi if you look closely in the Unguided Weapons video, you can see that you have the option to fire both at the same time, you can choose so in the armament panel 🙂

 

image.png

Yep seen it in the video. Back when I made that comment I only had the Mi-8's implementation of the pod to go by, so we can say my post aged poorly, thankfully though, because it's cool to get the option of "ALL DA DAKKA!" :))

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MiG-21Bis, Fw-190D, Bf-109K, P-51D, F-86F, Ka-50, UH-1H, Mi-8MTV2, Hawk T1A, C-101, FC3, A-10C, CA, Mirage 2000C, Gazelle, L-39, MiG-15Bis, F-5E, AJS 37 Viggen, Yak-52, Christen Eagle II, MiG-19, I-16, JF-17, F-14, F/A-18C, Fw-190A8, AV-8B/NA, Spitifre IX

 

Mods:

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Utility modules:

Combined Arms, NS 430 GPS

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