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What is "MAP designation" feature?


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Posted (edited)

I have read now the TAC-000 through couple times and I can't find MAP DESG to mean anything else than radar ground mapping.

 

It is pointed everywhere that when AG master mode is selected then the MAP is radar primary designation mode. 

As the AV-8B+ doesn't have the DMT, you are then left without the LST and TV Designation capabilities. And you need to carry TPOD to get those features.

 

In the N/A Harrier the INS mode is secondary designation mode as it is HUD only mode (need to see target and TD inside HUD to move TD with TDC) and DMT is the primary one.

 

But what is "MAP"?

Where does it really come available for us?

 

In the TAC-000 manual there are hundreds mentions how MAP is tied to radar variant, but only one (that I have found) to list it with N/A but it is where N/A and Radar variant is same and Day-time is without EHSD and FLIR.

 

Right now the "MAP DESIGNATION" is mixing INS such way that pilot can move TD anytime when in INS mode, and the TD moves around in EHSD.

 

This causes problems for players as well who are accidentally in INS mode and then they touch TDC and it does move TD around behind their aircraft because TDC is in "MAP DESG" (regardless that all in ARBS LST/TV mode states that those are disabled when reaching DMT gimbal limit and INS is automatically selected to avoid accidental designations, and they don't get automatically re-activated without pilot pressing SSS Aft again).

 

The manual doesn't say anyhting of SSS Left activating any TDC actions on the EHSD digital moving map. It only say that continuous SSS Left will toggle between decentered and centered EHSD view.

 

Can someone explain from where and why we should have "MAP"?

 

As far what comes to manual, we should have only three main means to designate a target.

 

1) Laser Spot Tracker

2) TV contrast lock

3) INS visual targeting using HUD.

 

Those are SSS main axis - Forward and Aft and are mutually exclusive from Left and Right.

 

And others are:

1) overfly the target and pressing TOO to designate area below aircraft using RALT.

2) JTAC sends datalink transmission.

3) entering target coordinates manually.

4) Waypoint and waypoint off-set.

5) Any means to convert existing TD to Markpoint or Target Point (M# or T# in EHSD instead W#) and recall those as TD.

6) And then separate system, like the TPOD (but not really part of Harrier systems).

 

 


Edited by Fri13
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The legend at the top left of MPCDs should display MAP when the TDC has been assigned to the digital map. This can be done in two ways: entering the DATA page or by performing a MAP designate update.

 

In game the TDC behaves wonky in the DATA mode and the MAP designate update is completely missing (the push button legend for UPDT is missing on the EHSD which should show when the INS is set to NAV). Also in game the legend at the top left of MPCDs incorrectly changes to MAP when SSS left is pressed, and the legend does not change to MAP when entering the DATA page.

 

MAP designate could also refer to the Gen4 TPOD where it displays "MAP/SLV" if slaved to a waypoint.

 

 

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On 5/16/2021 at 5:13 AM, lukeXIII said:

The legend at the top left of MPCDs should display MAP when the TDC has been assigned to the digital map. This can be done in two ways: entering the DATA page or by performing a MAP designate update.

 

AFAIK the real manual says that the MAP Designate is only for the radar Harrier. Example:

2.15.2.5.7 Target Designation and Lock-on.

 

The MAP designation is otherwise stated to be possible by just moving a TD (Target Designation) with TDC on map and get it done. 

Everything in the real manual points that "MAP Designation" is only for radar function with MAP, EXP1, EXP2 or EXP3

 

When entering to the DATA page, it has way to create and move the waypoints. But you are not designating anything in it. You could select a waypoint, target point or mark point and designate those, but those are just the coordinates in the memory that are recalled for the INS designation. 

 

At this moment we have the INS modeled such way that you get a TDC to EHSD map and you can move the TD around using map. While everything in the manual states that:

1.4.12.2 Expand Modes.

1.10.3.2 Calculations

2.4.2 INS Designation.

 

And the same thing is mentioned through the manual. You should not be able use EHSD for any target designation by using TDC, like example pilot can do with the TAD in the A-10C.

INS is locked to the HUD Total Field Of View and TDC does not respond to TD movement if TD is not inside HUD.

 

 

On 5/16/2021 at 5:13 AM, lukeXIII said:

In game the TDC behaves wonky in the DATA mode and the MAP designate update is completely missing (the push button legend for UPDT is missing on the EHSD which should show when the INS is set to NAV).

 

The MAP mode is only mentioned everywhere (except that one) to be a RADAR designation function. Be it a MAP update or so by using a recognizable landmark visually as on radar to perform alignment for INS-only based navigation to get the navigation fix.

 When navigation system is set to NAV mode, it is loosely coupled with GPS and you fly only based the INS accuracy and suffer from its drifting, requiring to perform 

 

"The INS should periodically be flown in NAV mode (no GPS aiding). This allows INS errors to be observed that otherwise might be masked by coupling with the GPS. Terminal position errors after the flight should be examined for acceptable navigation performance (less than 1 nm radial position error per 1 hour of nav). It is recommended that every fifth flight hour be flown in NAV mode (See paragraph 1.11.7, INS Performance Evaluation)."

 

The UPDT mode is radar velocity update feature:

1.4.12.9 In-Flight Alignment (IFA) Mode.

1.4.12.8.1 Velocity Update.

 

On 5/16/2021 at 5:13 AM, lukeXIII said:

Also in game the legend at the top left of MPCDs incorrectly changes to MAP when SSS left is pressed, and the legend does not change to MAP when entering the DATA page.

 

Likely we should just have "MAP" when we are editing the waypoints by moving it with TDC. But there shouldn't be a "MAP Designation". 

 

On 5/16/2021 at 5:13 AM, lukeXIII said:

MAP designate could also refer to the Gen4 TPOD where it displays "MAP/SLV" if slaved to a waypoint.

 

The TPOD is totally another system. For the Harrier Mission Computer point of view, everything in Target Designation is just a INS designation in the end. It is just a set of coordinates that has been acquired by knowing Harrier location and then the target coordinates. 

 

This is why the INS system is the critical part as without it aircraft can not know where it is. The IFA navigation mode is important as it uses GPS to find accurate aircraft position and update the INS system periodically. And if the INS mode is down or it is not aligned, EHSD loses map, the velocity vector and all those navigation and flight aids are gone.

 

In Harrier we can have only one target designation active. All systems are then acknowledging that target coordinate. 

And everything else in Harrier is pointing that when ever MAP designation is going, it is related to radar A-G mode mapping. 

So likely the TPOD should only have the MAP/SLV when we would have a radar that would operate in one of the A-G modes to deliver the MAP. Like a MAP, GMT or FTT.

And so on TPOD would example be slaved to ground moving target without using its own contrast lock.

 

As the INS and its TDC movement of TD is limited to HUD Total Field Of View, it can not be used to move TD around in map, or use MAP to designate any points on it. It would require a own special mode and function, and the manual doesn't say anything like that. 

 

So the whole idea that pilot could use TDC to move a TD around looking a map and have it perfectly aligned with the ground (by using DTED, Digital Terrain Elevation Data) is not correct The Manual states very clearly that only way to get a target elevation is to either use DMT or manually correct INS inside a HUD with pauses to calculate a slant range, or entering the target elevation data to waypoint, overflying it with radar altimeter and pressing TOO etc, there is no DTED available or used for any altitude information of the terrain).

 

 

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On 5/17/2021 at 8:45 PM, Fri13 said:

The UPDT mode is radar velocity update feature:

 

Check the NFM-000:

 

23.14.4 MAP Position Update (Night Attack and Radar only)

 

On 5/17/2021 at 8:45 PM, Fri13 said:

So the whole idea that pilot could use TDC to move a TD around looking a map and have it perfectly aligned with the ground (by using DTED, Digital Terrain Elevation Data) is not correct The Manual states very clearly that only way to get a target elevation is to either use DMT or manually correct INS inside a HUD with pauses to calculate a slant range, or entering the target elevation data to waypoint, overflying it with radar altimeter and pressing TOO etc, there is no DTED available or used for any altitude information of the terrain).

 

The TAC-000 that is available is very outdated (it does not include h4.0 and newer upgrades) so it won't include information on DTED integration.

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, lukeXIII said:

 

Check the NFM-000:

 

23.14.4 MAP Position Update (Night Attack and Radar only)

 

Yes, as I said, it is about the updating the aircraft position when no other means are found. It is a nav update.

It is not about designating targets on the map, pilot is not creating a system target.

It as well talks about slewing the crosshairs and not moving a TD.

 

There are two types of Designation Position updates:

1) WYPT Designate update; and

2) MAP Designate update. A WYPT designation update uses the designation’s known location and its slewed position in the HUD to calculate the aircraft’s position. A MAP designation update uses the slant range and bearing of a HUD designation and its slewed position on the map to calculate the aircraft’s position. A Designate Position update will update the aircraft position and the INS position.

 

You likely meant is: 

23.13 POSITION MARKING, second paragraph.

Or 

23.2.2.2 MAP Designate Update 

 

Quote

The TAC-000 that is available is very outdated (it does not include h4.0 and newer upgrades) so it won't include information on DTED integration.

 

The NFM-000 is just a addition to the TAC-000. You need to first read the TAC-000 to have the base knowledge of the systems, and then read the NFM-000 to see that what changes has been done to systems that are explained in TAC-000.

But please offer a newer one.

After all, all modules in DCS are suppose to be based to public information without backroom information that is not accessible for confirmation.

 

The information about the DTED in the NFM-000 states that there is no such target destination as we have. We don't have DTED added to Harrier in DCS, and it is a separate map data for the use, a separate map tile set. The NFM-000 as well writes about how example TOO button does only in H4.0 aircraft record the information of map coordinates without altitude information.

 

Point still is, the aircraft doesn't know target altitude via EHSD unless it is a radar MAP mode that would perform ranging to it.

And there is no target designation by using a map, but map can be used to update aircraft navigation position. 


Edited by Fri13

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