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Any information on the real helicopter represented by the new Ka-50?


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According to Big Newy they're modelling the new Black Shark after an experimental helicopter with tail number 25. However I can't find anything about this helicopter (In English at least). Does anyone have any resources on this particular variant?

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The version we're getting also has the six hard-point wing that was installed on the Ka-52 and offered for export versions of the Ka-50 (which never sold and thus never saw hardware - but could easily have).

 

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IIRC #25 was one of the two that went to Chechnya, did an ultra-low strike in the mountains on an ammo dump and clipped it's rotor with an S-80 fragment from going so low/close. Made it to a nearby base with that vibration where they cut/sanded/shaved the messed up rotor tip, flew to home base and spend a while waiting for a new rotor/blade. It was also the one in the Black Shark movie. And yeah, it's had a few paint schemes over time. Think in Chechnya they removed side numbers for pilot safety.

Think somewhere in the range 2007-2011 it tested the missile warning system and directional infrared countermeasure system. MWS worked well enough fairly early on, DIRCM took another year or two to get right amount of performance.

Not aware of it ever having had 3 pylons or firing IGLAs. Technically it also never got the upgrades for laser designation, so while you could mount Kh-25s, you wouldn't be able to designate for them.

 

ps. the Ka-52 only got the 3rd pylon some time into development, unsure if it coincided with receiving the newer, more powerful engines.

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Posted (edited)

Quite interesting. I wonder about getting hit by a fragment (aren't the actual S-8OF rockets supposed to have a minimum arming distance?) ...maybe rocket fragmentation effects are indeed under-modelled in the sim.

 

I do know that the extra hardpoints were offered for proposed export versions - and they seem to not require modifications to how they attach to the fuselage... so it is definitely more of a 'probable' than a 'possible'... even if it never actually happened.


Edited by Avimimus
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16 hours ago, Avimimus said:

even if it never actually happened.

 

Here are some comments on that. TL;DR: the new features are fictional.

 

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The problem is, without the shkval being fixed, we need the iglas to defend against other aircraft.  And even then, the shkval in RL can't lock targets with speed greater than around 250 kts, IIRC.  Would a modern day Ka-50 have a three rail wing and carry iglas?  Looking at the Ka-52, most likely.

 

In fact, it probably would have had a lot of the features of the Ka-52, such as RWR, MWS, DIRCM, and FLIR, all mounted in a glass cockpit.  It was made to be a "hand" of the Ka-52.

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On 5/15/2021 at 3:57 PM, Volk. said:

IIRC #25 was one of the two that went to Chechnya, did an ultra-low strike in the mountains on an ammo dump and clipped it's rotor with an S-80 fragment from going so low/close. Made it to a nearby base with that vibration where they cut/sanded/shaved the messed up rotor tip, flew to home base and spend a while waiting for a new rotor/blade. It was also the one in the Black Shark movie. And yeah, it's had a few paint schemes over time. Think in Chechnya they removed side numbers for pilot safety.

Think somewhere in the range 2007-2011 it tested the missile warning system and directional infrared countermeasure system. MWS worked well enough fairly early on, DIRCM took another year or two to get right amount of performance.

Not aware of it ever having had 3 pylons or firing IGLAs. Technically it also never got the upgrades for laser designation, so while you could mount Kh-25s, you wouldn't be able to designate for them.

 

ps. the Ka-52 only got the 3rd pylon some time into development, unsure if it coincided with receiving the newer, more powerful engines.


Where did you read that about flying low and damaging itself with an S-8 fragment??? It’s wrong for sure.

 

What happened, was not during combat, but during further combat-maneuvre outlining. It was in a safe environment at Torzhok. The pilot went, by accident, into an unexplored flight regime and ended up with a rotor collision. The pilot didn’t have time to react with eject, and this ended up passing away in the accident. The pilot’s name was Maj. Gen. Boris Vorbiev. Here is a video portraying the exact accident, and it was the one and only of Ka50: 

 

 

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@zerO_crash the S-8 fragment was from an ultra-low attack during the first Chechnyan sortie. Think an ammo dump. It didn't go down - just got some vibrations, landed at a closer airbase/airport/FOB, saw the tip was damaged which they then cut/sanded down, and then flew back to base. It then spent some time out of the fight waiting for a new blade/rotor while #24 kept flying.

I may be wrong about #25 being the one in the Black Shark movie though.

 

First time I've seen footage of the rotor intersection you posted there. That was Bort 22 in 1998. There was a another fatal accident w/ Evgeny Laryushin - afaik not rotor intersection, just pushing beyond the limits on V-80-1 (serial 010) in 1985

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Posted (edited)

Some pictures of #25 that it is supposedly replicating.

 

ka50-25-1.jpg

ka50-25-2.jpg

 

The MWS is visible but still can't find any pictures of it at all with a third pylon or Iglas.


Edited by Sephyrius
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On 5/27/2021 at 5:11 AM, Sephyrius said:

Some pictures of #25 that it is supposedly replicating.

 

ka50-25-1.jpg

ka50-25-2.jpg

 

The MWS is visible but still can't find any pictures of it at all with a third pylon or Iglas.

 

"The MWS is visible but still can't find any pictures of it at all with a third pylon or Iglas."

 

Because - as has been pointed out multiple times, & acknowledged by E.D., the Ka-50 was never actually fielded with Igla or a 3rd pylon - it's a what if exercise of imagination.

The reasoning often used runs like 'The Mossie NF had a radar and launchers for rockets- wouldn't it be great if it was upgraded to an N/APQ-153 & had some sidewinders fitted ??? You know it would have happened if they hadn't retired the aircraft !!!"

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They're adding iglas, because they don't want to fix the shkval, and otherwise it will be slaughtered by the Apache.  Even the Mi-24p will be able to kill it with it's R-60's.  Since it was experimental, and never really produced, as you say they did a "what if", and envisioned a more modern version of it.

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They're adding iglas, because they don't want to fix the shkval, and otherwise it will be slaughtered by the Apache.  Even the Mi-24p will be able to kill it with it's R-60's.  Since it was experimental, and never really produced, as you say they did a "what if", and envisioned a more modern version of it.

This.

”Gameplay” balancing and fantasy features are coming.

Sure this is small thing, but next time its even more easy to duck tape nice to have things and there we go.


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On 5/18/2021 at 1:05 AM, 3WA said:

The problem is, without the shkval being fixed, we need the iglas to defend against other aircraft.  And even then, the shkval in RL can't lock targets with speed greater than around 250 kts, IIRC.

 

There is no limit for target speed, only for a Shkval gimbal rate.

 

Target moving 250 km/h (134 kts) or 250 kts (463 km/h) has different rate depending is it flying 10 km from you or 2 km from you.

 

Of course target flying perpendicularly and not toward or away.

 

But I could assume that Shkval does have a high rates for tracking, like a 10°/s or something like that. And it can be faster rate in tracking phase than when slewed.

 

The current problem is lack of proper contrast locking as you say.

As if we have clear strong contrast, we should be able use even the largest tracking gate as it is dynamic one. Slew it around the contrast and initiate the lock. The system should spend some milliseconds to build a pattern for the contrast scene and then shrink around the strongest contrast.

 

In Shkval panel we have Black or White symbology. I would assume that is not to make the symbology visible in one lighting condition or another. But to be same as with AGM-65D Maverick, that you will maintain FLIR polarisation but you command is it a Hot track or Cold track and it is notified by the symbology being black or white. 

 

So my assumption is that

1) if you have a black object on white sky, the Black mode would easily lock on it, while white mode would have challenge as it sees white everywhere without pattern and doesn't know where to lock or how to track it.

2) if you have a white boat in dark sea, then you get easily lock on it and track it with white mode instead black mode.

 

And then comes the challenges where 

You have a dark green camo pattern vehicle next a dark green forest, where sunlight illuminates it from a side, where you would need to play contrast and brightness knobs to create wanted contrast and then use proper contrast mode and lock on it.

 

So it is not just a adjustments for the TV but whole imaging process in targeting system where pilot adjust contrast, brightness and gain to create strongest contrast, as then it is easier without complex computer to try to do it by itself when human can do it quickly for the purpose and based target conditions, and the TV is nothing more than a visual observation tool to see what is the adjusted condition for Shkval.

 

This based to all other contrast tracking based systems, where pilots are given means to control them this way.

 

And the tracking gate that is dynamic, has easier time to acquire the pattern to track.

Pilot job is to use the smallest tracking gate to command computer to ignore all other patterns around the target so it knows what pattern to track and what to ignore.

This is important as if you have a above example of vehicle front of forest, that you can have unwanted "hot spots" or "cold spots" inside lock gate and tracking try to track them and the small moving contrast that vehicle creates gets ignored as it slips out of the large gate area.

Why using small gate and get it around target will make other contrast to be ignored and system can track small contrast from the vehicle far higher propability.

 

 What this means is that fast moving target in a sky is easy to lock as you only need to get it inside largest lock gate and it will automatically shrink around the target even if small.

But if it is against a mountain or ground, you would need to get it either be very individual contrast or use a smaller (proper) lock gate size to get it around target and ignore trees etc contrast.

 

This would mean that one could easily use HMS with largest tracking gate to just "look at target" and initiate lock at flying target against sky. Keep Shkval inside it's gimbal limits and rate (turning toward it heading) and it would work great.

 

 

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21 hours ago, Stratos said:

They plan to fix the Skhval for BS3??

 

This is an important question. But I would imagine this will come as DCS World core change rather than module specific.

 

Only this, and more realistic fragmentation, blast and area affect (suppression etc.) from the rockets are what's missing for me personally when I fly the Ka-50.

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On 5/31/2021 at 1:10 PM, Stratos said:

They plan to fix the Skhval for BS3??

 

Nothin is assured, but they have said earlier that they are going to implement all the systems that were missing in the earlier version (not functional) like Shkval filters etc. 

ED is as well working with the new FLIR simulation for targeting pods and like, so one can assume that all optical targeting systems are overhauled and not just a FLIR imagery.

 

As what we need is to get out of the "Object ID inside tracking gate = follow the object".

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