Why only 2 R27ETs?

[Max1mus]

1 hour ago, Skysurfer said:

 

All valid points but even the 27SM or 30SM wouldn't be that more lethal in BVR since their main limiting factor are still the relatively old semi-active missiles. (77-1 or RVV-SD being more of a 120B equivalent with some high maneuverability as one of the design criteria). There's no way around that. Sure better radar and maybe better T/W (if even) can help to an extent but will never be on paar with 120C equipped 15's or most Link 16 jets in general. And then the Archer threat is mostly mitigated or matched by the 9X as well as counter hobs.

 

Debatable.

[BlackPixxel]

Any R-77 with loft will be a massive stepup for the Flanker and create roughly parity.

Link-16 would not be such a big advantage if ED would not keep the Su-27/33 from having P2P datalink in multiplayer.

 

Combine that with the usual lack of skill from Blufor pilots in DCS and they would have no chance.

[Skysurfer]

3 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

Any R-77 with loft will be a massive stepup for the Flanker and create roughly parity.

 

No such thing currently. Further 77 delopments, maybe, just not curent.

[UncleJunkie]

On 5/12/2021 at 7:00 PM, Exorcet said:

I can't totally answer that question, but if you're flying on DCS version 2.5, the ER was updated in DCS 2.7 to be more realistic which increased its speed and range. The R-77 hasn't had this update yet and that leaves the ER as have significantly better range in some situations, and when at close range, it closes in on the target much faster if fired at altitude.

 

I upgraded to 2.7 to check out the new ERs and you are right they do seem significantly more lethal.

 

I've been running through the Persian Gulf 4v4 mission (15C with AMRAAM vs Flankers) multiple times attempting to beat it. It must have been designed since before the 120C was added since I've found it almost impossible to beat. (I  can beat the 2v2 almost with my eyes closed.

 

For fun, I took the mission and swapped the SU27 out for the SU35S, and loaded my flight up with 2x R37 and 4x R77M just too see if ordinance made a difference, and I beat it almost without trying.

 

Being the first one able to fire a missile and force your opponent defensive seems probably the most important part of BVR combat.

 

Even so, I think I'm going to stick with the Flanker. It seems to me to be the perfect platform to force you to learn good tactics, because that's the only way to succeed with it

[Max1mus]

17 minutes ago, UncleJunkie said:

Being the first one able to fire a missile and force your opponent defensive seems probably the most important part of BVR combat.

I recommend starting with SARH only combat, the Buddyspike 80s servers offer an environment with just the R and T version of R-27 against AIM-7s. SARH combat is the most simple and a very good thing to get started with, its indeed mostly about getting your opponent defensive and then pressing.

After that, you should probably try out the PG/Syria Modern server from Buddyspike, it offers a mix of some 90s and some 2000s weapons. You will be fighting AIM-120Bs and only the MK47 variant of the phoenix, which is a decently fair environment for you to learn in. Its also not as mountanous, forcing you to come up with more reliable approaches than masking. Once you get comfortable with the AIM-120 ranges, you will find your main challenge to be differentiating F-14s and AIM-120 carriers. Its not easy all the time, but also adds an interesting amount of depth to the fight. Youll use clues like the length of his missile trail, human GCI, EWR reports, jammer behaviour, and SPO-15 strength (spoiler, F-18 radar shows up stronger than the F-14s).

Only after that should you consider jumping in against 15-20 year newer stuff on unrestricted servers. The temptation on those is way too high to give up on normal tactics, and instead start hiding in mountains. And you wont learn a thing doing that.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Max1mus

[Max1mus]

7 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

Any R-77 with loft will be a massive stepup for the Flanker and create roughly parity.

Link-16 would not be such a big advantage if ED would not keep the Su-27/33 from having P2P datalink in multiplayer.

 

Combine that with the usual lack of skill from Blufor pilots in DCS and they would have no chance.

 

How about R-77 with ability to launch silently on up to 4 targets, plus supporting an ER, possibly multiple ERs at the same time? With a radar that makes the ER dangerous up close? And a modern RWR?

That sounds more like parity. If its a chinese Su-30, you´re probably getting PL-12s on top of all that. At that point parity with western 4th gens is not even discussable, at that point we´re talking about a sort of fighter that F-22s are supposed to counter.


But there will never be parity between soviet versions of the flanker and 20 year newer weapons. Its a problem ED could easily solve with new AI units or an upgrade of FC3 aircraft, but a short look on Chizh (ED)´s forum post history will reveal why this is not happening.

Edited May 16, 2021 by Max1mus

[Cmptohocah]

Please don't forget that Su-27s can support each other's missiles, meaning one can be the shooter and the other one is providing the radar/DL and also Flankers can receive target information from other sources like ground stations. What I mean by this is not the top-down picture from the DL but actual targets on the HUD.

[BlackPixxel]

10 hours ago, Skysurfer said:

 

No such thing currently. Further 77 delopments, maybe, just not curent.

 

What do you mean? Currently in DCS or currently in the real world?

 

Real R-77 do loft, as confirmed by the russian pilots here on the forum.

[GGTharos]

5 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

Please don't forget that Su-27s can support each other's missiles, meaning one can be the shooter and the other one is providing the radar/DL and also Flankers can receive target information from other sources like ground stations. What I mean by this is not the top-down picture from the DL but actual targets on the HUD.

 

That is a myth.   Any aircraft can do this with SARH, no one does it in practice.  There are very good reasons for this.

[Skysurfer]

4 hours ago, BlackPixxel said:

 

What do you mean? Currently in DCS or currently in the real world?

 

Real R-77 do loft, as confirmed by the russian pilots here on the forum.

 

Source?

[Cmptohocah]

2 hours ago, GGTharos said:

 

That is a myth.   Any aircraft can do this with SARH, no one does it in practice.  There are very good reasons for this.

Myth or not, it's in RL manual.

[GGTharos]

1 minute ago, Cmptohocah said:

Myth or not, it's in RL manual.

 

Where?  Who would turn two weapon systems into one and screw themselves over by doing this?   Is this part of a tactical manual or just a 'you can technically do this but beware of EMI and tactical problems it creates' - all this stuff is documented since sparrows have been shot over SEA if not earlier.   The channel separation was put in for a good reason.

Generating an M-link for another aircraft's missile missile back then is also questionable as there are track correlation issues.  Maybe they're not a huge issue for a homing missile, that's an interesting thing to find out.

[DarkFire]

15 hours ago, UncleJunkie said:

 

Being the first one able to fire a missile and force your opponent defensive seems probably the most important part of BVR combat.

 

This. If you can get inside the OODA loop of your opponent and force them to react instead of act, you're probably going to win. At the very least the odds are stacked heavily in your favour at that point.

[Max1mus]

1 hour ago, DarkFire said:

 

This. If you can get inside the OODA loop of your opponent and force them to react instead of act, you're probably going to win. At the very least the odds are stacked heavily in your favour at that point.

For 1990s+ combat thats too simplified. Especially for flanker pilots. Its part of winning against AIM-120s, but not the whole truth and fully committing to that doctrine will end up getting your flight killed, against good opponents. AI is easily abusable by shooting any missile at them for reasonable close distance. Theyll abort any task theyre currently committed to and you can just kill them.

[Skysurfer]

So much this ^

 

Shooting first doesn't mean a whole lot if you have to support the missile to impact, unless you have something like an R-33 or Phoenix. And unless you have two tightly grouped bandits supporting and shooting two missiles at the same time is pretty useless as well as degrades the quality of your tracks in some cases. Not to say that a Flanker doesn't stand any chance against western 4th gens, especially in more chaotic scenarios and if there is fog of war but technologically they are at a pretty notable disadvantage. Go talk to someone who flew Red Flag against the Indian dudes or participated in Clear Sky 2018 with the Ukrainians. 

 

Good article on the matter: http://news.e-dirgantara.com/internasional/the-russian-jet-that-fights-for-both-sides/

Edited May 16, 2021 by Skysurfer

[Max1mus]

1 hour ago, Skysurfer said:

Go talk to someone who flew Red Flag against the Indian dudes or participated in Clear Sky 2018 with the Ukrainians. 

 

I said you need different tactics than just shooting first. It has nothing to do with superior/inferior. In DCS, the J-11A is either equal to (2v2) or even slightly superior to the F-15C (many vs many) in a 1990s arena.

 

The Americans who flew against the indian Su-30MKI concluded that it was "a tad bit" superior to all their fighters except the F-22. They recall that on average, the Su-30 won more in the excercises they flew. The Su-30MKI, MKA, Su-30SM etc. have radars that have 100 degree gimbals off boresight. What that means is that they can support their missiles while beaming/slightly cold or notching, and can also scan in that spot.

 

The Ukrainian air force uses exclusively soviet aircraft and missiles with some slight upgrades. A lot of their planes were lost in the civil war. That means theyre essentially flying 35-40 years older gear. Thats like compring a MiG-19 or 21 to a Super hornet.

 

Unfortunately it is very unlikely that we will get a 2000s Su-30 with the Bars radar, and the best thing we can hope for is a Chinese Su-30. It may end up being as effective due to additional PL-12 capability, but its going to end up with DCS Flankers flying more like their american counterparts. A DCS Su-30MKI on the other hand adds even more unique tools to the already very diverse box of tools on Su-27s.

[musolo]

Both huge  onboard sensor and ET/T sensors are ridiculously nerfed  according to real pilots testiments on this forum. Flanker overall  is nerfed in other aspects too and we have to live with that) 

[draconus]

4 hours ago, musolo said:

Both huge  onboard sensor and ET/T sensors are ridiculously nerfed  according to real pilots testiments on this forum. Flanker overall  is nerfed in other aspects too and we have to live with that) 

It's also not accurate or OP in some other regards like HUD, radar mode flows, instant lock ons, even EOS too good in some situations...

[musolo]

6 hours ago, draconus said:

It's also not accurate or OP in some other regards like HUD, radar mode flows, instant lock ons, even EOS too good in some situations...

1 HUD missing TTI line, Not implemented EO search bar,

2 Those some situations being?

[Airhunter]

5 minutes ago, musolo said:

Those some situations being?

Clouds, humidity, sun, time of day. 

[falcon_120]

26 minutes ago, Airhunter said:

Clouds, humidity, sun, time of day. 

Basically this, since the introduction on the new clouds; amazing by the way, people forget that currently weapon system like IR missile totally ignore clouds. IRL those clouds are blocking your target almost completely, meaning you R27ET would be restricted to clear LOS. Forget about those 12-15nm through clouds that silently kill a lot of blue planes that didn't even have a chance to spot that missile smoke through a dense layer of clouds.

 

Never heard again of this from ED since months ago, but they should introduce at some point the blocking of visual targetting systems (also EOS) by clouds.

[musolo]

2 hours ago, Airhunter said:

Clouds, humidity, sun, time of day. 

 

2 hours ago, falcon_120 said:

Basically this, since the introduction on the new clouds; amazing by the way, people forget that currently weapon system like IR missile totally ignore clouds. IRL those clouds are blocking your target almost completely, meaning you R27ET would be restricted to clear LOS. Forget about those 12-15nm through clouds that silently kill a lot of blue planes that didn't even have a chance to spot that missile smoke through a dense layer of clouds.

You guys should try fire ET trough clouds few times) If it would work for you i`d like to know how it actually did. And at what ranges.

Being on receiving end is one thing. It seems OP) But try to actually use it and you`ll see it`s far from it.

[GGTharos]

1 hour ago, musolo said:

You guys should try fire ET trough clouds few times) If it would work for you i`d like to know how it actually did. And at what ranges.

Being on receiving end is one thing. It seems OP) But try to actually use it and you`ll see it`s far from it.

What exactly are you trying to justify?   It should be as impossible as AMRAAMs tracking through mountains.  I mean if the cloud was really thin, maybe, you could even sort of see through it visually but a proper cloud would be its own IR source, completely masking a target from IRH missiles past a certain point.

Edited November 12, 2021 by GGTharos

[Airhunter]

2 hours ago, musolo said:

 

You guys should try fire ET trough clouds few times) If it would work for you i`d like to know how it actually did. And at what ranges.

Being on receiving end is one thing. It seems OP) But try to actually use it and you`ll see it`s far from it.

 

Use EO/radar, look up, lock and fire. Easiest thing ever. Clouds have 0 effect other than breaking line of sight rn.

[falcon_120]

You guys should try fire ET trough clouds few times) If it would work for you i`d like to know how it actually did. And at what ranges.
Being on receiving end is one thing. It seems OP) But try to actually use it and you`ll see it`s far from it.

I should not have used the 27et as an example, again, the thing is IR seekers seeing through clouds are not a thing and should be corrected, it's a bug as far as I see affecting all IR missiles, 9x,9m, 27et,ir Sams...

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