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WW1 planes, a few assets, and a map


S. Low
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Hey Nine, Bignewy, wags et al,

 

I've always enjoyed ww1 aviation and played the various options out there off an on. Have tried one of the major names out there right now and while it has a functional multiplayer, all the realism aspects of the "sim" fall short.

 

Your professionalism in flight modeling, ballistics, etc are simply awesome. 

 

So I'm trying to butter you up to convince you to make a set of WW1 planes, asset, and map: DCS: SE5a, DCS: Spad XIII, DCS: Fokker DVII F, DCS: Albatross DVa, DCS: Fokker Dr.1, at least, to start off. 

 

The customer base for ww1 isn't huge, but it IS there. And I'm certain that your existing warbird community would jump in as well. So you could draw in various customers from other sims plus your current customers and perhaps it would be successful. 

 

Numerical data on flight modeling and ballistics are probably sparse but there are a lot of combat reports from the best pilots in history that can be used to review numbers calculations. There are however several rebuilt ww1 aircraft that are being flown right now today that information can be gathered from. I know of an Albatross DVa, a Fokker Dr.1, and a handful of SE5a's. The Dr.1 is especially interesting because the owner flies it aggressively, using combat maneuvers to corroborate historical accounts.

 

Thanks.

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I mean, there's always the option of making the modules yourself. In theory the aircraft of the era would be easier to model and animate, and their flight data is well known so a professional flight model would be comparatively easy to make. Even better the ground assets could translate well to even the modern day, such as the trenches, bunkers, and funnily enough, even some of the tanks!

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As much as I enjoy WWI kites in another game (especially in VR WWI dogfights are absolutely stunning and WWI atmosphere is very special) it would stretch DCS even more adding another empty timeframe/war.

 

Another thing is it would require a massive amount of work and many years modeling just 6-8 aircrafts only to go close to what another game offers now in terms of WWI since now DCS has zero WWI content, aircrafts, assets, maps or experience from the past

 

When i try to be objective it looks like a poor idea from both business part and overall DCS coherent development plan.


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19 minutes ago, bies said:

When i try to be objective it looks like a poor idea from both business part and overall DCS coherent development plan.

 

I would disagree, both on this and the time it would take to make any aircraft. For starters, the aircraft of the Great War are about as basic as they get. Wood, Canvas, Wires, and fairly early internal combustion engines with wooden props. The gauges are simple, giving only basic information like your airspeed and how much fuel you have. The guns are aimed using iron sights, and most don't even get any other weapons outside of maybe a hand grenade tossed out by the pilot. If it were my project, I'd make it an entire pack, similar to FC3, which you buy one pack and get a dozen or so planes and some WW1 era assets including units, statics, and other things that DCS is actually missing (like the aforementioned bunkers and trenches).

 

This is the first age of aviation after all. Almost all of the lessons pilots learn today were literally written in the skies over Europe in WW1. And I could see people using these aircraft to learn the basics of flying and fighting in formation because, again, you can't get any more simple than these aircraft got. You don't have to worry about systems. You don't have to worry about any complex avionics. It's all stick and rudder flying.

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34 minutes ago, Tank50us said:

 

I would disagree, both on this and the time it would take to make any aircraft. For starters, the aircraft of the Great War are about as basic as they get. Wood, Canvas, Wires, and fairly early internal combustion engines with wooden props. The gauges are simple, giving only basic information like your airspeed and how much fuel you have. The guns are aimed using iron sights, and most don't even get any other weapons outside of maybe a hand grenade tossed out by the pilot. If it were my project, I'd make it an entire pack, similar to FC3, which you buy one pack and get a dozen or so planes and some WW1 era assets including units, statics, and other things that DCS is actually missing (like the aforementioned bunkers and trenches).

 

This is the first age of aviation after all. Almost all of the lessons pilots learn today were literally written in the skies over Europe in WW1. And I could see people using these aircraft to learn the basics of flying and fighting in formation because, again, you can't get any more simple than these aircraft got. You don't have to worry about systems. You don't have to worry about any complex avionics. It's all stick and rudder flying.

 

I agree overall WWI era is very appealing.

I only think just to compete on roughly equal terms with the other game DCS WWI would need to model WWI proper era map, at least few WWI aircrafts, some WWI assets like trucks, artillery, AAA, ballons, tanks of the era etc. Like they do with Normandy/Channel 1944 whit 2 proper maps, WW2 assets, 6 flyable aircrafts, few AAI aircrafts etc.

It's a massive task for years.

 

And right from the start DCS would be deprived it's biggest competitive advantage in this case - detailed modeling of complex systems - since WWI kites were extremely rudimentary. Considered WWI systems complexity and very scarce data the other game already gives WWI era aircrafts justice.

There is close to nothing more in terms of complexity DCS could go to make people pay few times bigger price for close to identical fidelity.

Instead DCS can comfortable chose some Korea, Vietnam or something like that with zero competition on the horizon and guaranteed big sales and community support.


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45 minutes ago, bies said:

As much as I enjoy WWI kites in another game (especially in VR WWI dogfights are absolutely stunning and WWI atmosphere is very special) it would stretch DCS even more adding another empty timeframe/war.

 

Another thing is it would require a massive amount of work and many years modeling just 6-8 aircrafts only to go close to what another game offers now in terms of WWI since now DCS has zero WWI content, aircrafts, assets, maps or experience from the past

 

When i try to be objective it looks like a poor idea from both business part and overall DCS coherent development plan.

 

 

I haven't taken the DCS WW2 plunge yet (to little time already to properly learn the modules I own now), but I can imagine the, open cockpit, WW1 air battles will be a fantastic experience in VR.

I would certainly pull my wallet to give a DCS quality WW1 bird a go.

 

But I think you are right @bies. ED should better first focus on ironing out the timeframes they currently have content for, before stepping into developing a whole new era (and all the troubles that come with that).

 

I believe though, that not too long ago I read a response from ED somewhere (can't recall where exactly), where they stated not to have any WW1 plans.

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I would also like to see WWI come to DCS. But the best we can realistically hope for this coming to DCS in the next 10 years would be through a new 3rd party that specializes in WWI or for ED to make a basic MAC style game of that era.

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Well the competitors in this field are terrible, so DCS quality ww1 planes and DCS quality damage model and graphics would be amazing. 

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Competition, Flying Circus, is already very solid with ~ 13 aircrafts, soon ~20, including fighters, recon/light bombers, heavy bombers. WW1 map, soon another bigger one. Solid FM, DM, armament, WWI ground assets, field modifications and great VR implementation.

 

Could DCS do even better? Possibly yes. But it would be tough and it would take many years. Why repeating the other work if ED can chose some different timeframe it already started to fill with content? I would like and I would definitely buy hypothetical DCS WWI pack.

 

But the one thing I wouldn't like to see in DCS is just one or two WWI aircraft, without WWI map, assets, AI aircrafts, campaign or any context, to fly once or twice and leave it.

 

DCS WW2 is fantastic now, with many 1944 flyable aircrafts from one particular timeframe for both sides, WW2 assets, two proper maps, realistic improved DM. But it took many years and passion of many guys some of them even flying the real WW2 warbirds today, like the Flying Legends.

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Such up close and personal combat would definitely make it necessary that the AI aircraft use the same FM as the player. Currently the DCS engine doesn’t do that. An enemy plane flying like a UAP 20-30 miles away is much less jarring than at 20-30 yards. 

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2 hours ago, SharpeXB said:

Such up close and personal combat would definitely make it necessary that the AI aircraft use the same FM as the player.

Lol. There is no such necessity because that's neither how flight models nor how AI works. 😄 

 

The actual problem would be that everything would have to be bespoke to the era to an even larger extent than WWII. So much would needed to fill up the world in any meaningful sense that it would further splinter their work efforts, just to fill a particularly niche… well… niche. Some things could conceivably be reused in WWII scenarios and vice versa, but this is a period with such rapid development both on the ground and in the air that overlaps would be rare. Thus, unless it would be a guaranteed mass success, it just wouldn't be worth-while distraction from the eras they already struggle to fill out properly.

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8 hours ago, bies said:

Competition, Flying Circus, is already very solid with ~ 13 aircrafts, soon ~20, including fighters, recon/light bombers, heavy bombers. WW1 map, soon another bigger one. Solid FM, DM, armament, WWI ground assets, field modifications and great VR implementation.

 

Could DCS do even better? Possibly yes. But it would be tough and it would take many years. Why repeating the other work if ED can chose some different timeframe it already started to fill with content? I would like and I would definitely buy hypothetical DCS WWI pack.

 

But the one thing I wouldn't like to see in DCS is just one or two WWI aircraft, without WWI map, assets, AI aircrafts, campaign or any context, to fly once or twice and leave it.

 

DCS WW2 is fantastic now, with many 1944 flyable aircrafts from one particular timeframe for both sides, WW2 assets, two proper maps, realistic improved DM. But it took many years and passion of many guys some of them even flying the real WW2 warbirds today, like the Flying Legends.


The DM for FC is one of the worst DM’s in existence. None of the planes damage properly at all. In fact it’s so bad that it has killed off the game’s player base 

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11 hours ago, S. Low said:


The DM for FC is one of the worst DM’s in existence. None of the planes damage properly at all. In fact it’s so bad that it has killed off the game’s player base 

The FM's as well are quite dumbed down for people to be able to fly them easier. Not realistic at all. That is why I have stuck with Rise of Flight.

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Alright, well, since we're all talking about it, how about this... let's assume a team is formed, and decides to make this a module, for a lack of a better name, we'll call it the "Great War Pack". Now, what aircraft do you think would fit into this pack, as a flyable plane, as an AI, and, most importantly, what ground assets would have to be modeled in, and which of those assets should be released to the general game spaces.

 

I'm serious here, let's be constructive here, we lose nothing by tossing ideas around in a forum, so let's keep the positive energy going.

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For flyable planes you’d probably be best served with the mid war stuff. So, something like Nieuport 17 and Spad 7 vs. Albatross D.III for the flyable planes, and then add in a AI recon plane from both sides. Not sure of the proper ones for mid war but maybe the DH.4 and the German Aviatik. 
 

Assets would need to be Aerodrome stuff: hangers, tents, barracks, and AA MGs/Flak. Also some covered trucks, a couple tanks, and infantry. Fuel and ammo trucks for rearming.

 

Then general map stuff for the map itself. Trees, rivers, lakes, the no mans land with trenches and burnt out towns, cities on both sides.


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Considering how DCS WWII has fared with regards to it's adoption and growth (and most of that is due to a very small but dedicated community) not to mention the inadequacy of DCS World to provide a living and breathing dynamic campaign, I think that DCS WWI should be something that should probably be left aside for the foreseeable future. While Eagle Dynamics prides itself on DCS World being a diverse and non-period specific sandbox simulator, it is only an adequate sandbox simulator for the most part, with some brilliant modules, some great to average campaigns and multiplayer which usually works best in relatively modern scenarios, and very rarely and only with great effort in WWII scenarios. I don't think WWI is a good fit for DCS world and vice versa, since I'm very doubtful of the WWII stuff living up to it's potential any time soon either. 


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It’s a perfect fit. And they are focused on ww2 regardless of your perception that ww2 isnt lucrative. 

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2 hours ago, Lurker said:

While Eagle Dynamics prides itself on DCS World being a diverse and non-period specific sandbox simulator, it is only an adequate sandbox simulator for the most part

 

A mistake by ED there

WW1 would be fantastic (I really crave an in-depth DCS simulation of a Sopwith Camel), but DCS is stretched thin enough already.  The WW2 scenario isn't fleshed out for the D-day invasion period yet (though seems that finally ED has gotten a sort of groove on it).  Plus there are talks of moving to PTO, which sounds like terrible news because that would split WW2 development and the community before even one scenario would be finished.

 

There's just too much going on right now, so much left to do elsewhere.

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9 hours ago, Magic Zach said:

A mistake by ED there

WW1 would be fantastic (I really crave an in-depth DCS simulation of a Sopwith Camel), but DCS is stretched thin enough already.  The WW2 scenario isn't fleshed out for the D-day invasion period yet (though seems that finally ED has gotten a sort of groove on it).  Plus there are talks of moving to PTO, which sounds like terrible news because that would split WW2 development and the community before even one scenario would be finished.

 

There's just too much going on right now, so much left to do elsewhere.

 

Hence why it might be better if this WW1 module were made by a 3rd party team. After all, who's gonna care about diverted resources at that point since it's not EDs resources being used here.

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