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Use flaps in a guns dogfight?


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Posted (edited)

I was wondering if one would use the flaps in the Mig29 just like people did in WW2 aircraft? How is it done in the real world, does it make sense to do so in DCS, or better just dont do it. As the Mig 29 is no fly by wire aircraft, the regular (trailing edge) flaps do nothing when turning tight and getting slow. The leading edge flap come down, though. So would it be a good idea to put the regular flaps down manually like the fly by wire aircraft do automatically?!


Edited by darkman222
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Posted (edited)
11 minutes ago, darkman222 said:

I was wondering if one would use the flaps in the Mig29 just like people did in WW2 aircraft? How is it done in the real world, does it make sense to do so in DCS, or better just dont do it. As the Mig 29 is no fly by wire aircraft, the (trailing edge) flaps do nothing when turning tight and getting slow. The leading edge flap come down, though. So would it be a good idea to put the regular flaps down too as the fly by wire aircraft do automatically?!

I am no expert, but I highly doubt that IRL anyone uses flaps while dogfighting, but I could be wrong also.

 

When it comes to DCS: flaps provide "extra" lift for a cost of additional drag. For example, if you reach critical Angle of Attack in clean configuration, this means that you can't "pull" any more for the current airspeed. Flaps allow you to increase lift and your stall speed is then decreased.

Practically, you would want to use flaps in situations where you are trying to perform a quick and hard turn at low speed, but only temporary. Like on top portion of rolling scissors for example, or while performing a defensive spiral.


Edited by Cmptohocah
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Posted (edited)

I think it's not as useful of a tactic unless you are in a situation where you are running out of energy before your enemy is. But MiG-29 has two nearly overpowered engines for it's size that do a better job of keeping your aircraft under control than depoying flaps would do, so a situation where deploying flaps would be better then just pushing full afterburner is extremely rare. 


Edited by Zweistein000
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22 minutes ago, Skysurfer said:

Flaps have a +2G and roll limit but since that isn't modelled...

Well thats the answer then. Maybe you could use it as an exploit, but this tells me the Mig was not intended to be flown in a dogfight with flaps down. I think thats the answer I was looking for.

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It's not much of an exploit - it's a damn liability. Against many Western fighters, the MiG-29 suffers from speed loss and long recovery times. It feels like, if you set the MiG-29 and the F-16 up at the same high AOA, at a speed under 200 KIAS, the F-16 would want to pick up speed 2-3 faster than the MiG-29. 

 

Your AOA limiter override is a better tool to foil shooting solutions or gain a snap shot. Flaps will not only cash in all your airspeed but leave you in serious debt.

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So what you're saying is, don't use flaps also because it'll make the Mig 29 accelerate out of a low energy, slow speed situation even worse? Makes sense too. Stick deflection override is the only assignable button that can override something in the Mig. Do you mean that with AOA limiter override?

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Posted (edited)

Auto slats off the leading edge serve the purpose you would normally get with deploying flaps.

 

 

''just like people did in WW2 aircraft?''

 

Gamers are the only people who do stuff like that. I've heard multiple pilot interviews where they were specifically asked that and the response was always a blank stare and ''No.... why would you do that?'' In real life pilots tend not to risk damaging their aircraft with the usual bs gamers do. Contrary to popular belief, getting a kill was secondary to not damaging your aircraft.


Edited by Mars Exulte
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4 hours ago, Mars Exulte said:

Auto slats off the leading edge serve the purpose you would normally get with deploying flaps.

 

 

''just like people did in WW2 aircraft?''

 

Gamers are the only people who do stuff like that. I've heard multiple pilot interviews where they were specifically asked that and the response was always a blank stare and ''No.... why would you do that?'' In real life pilots tend not to risk damaging their aircraft with the usual bs gamers do. Contrary to popular belief, getting a kill was secondary to not damaging your aircraft.

 

That's interesting, that's interesting.

Can you take a look at this page

http://www.wwiiaircraftperformance.org/mustang/combat-reports.html

and hit control + f then type in flaps.

 

Or even just this report alone

http://www.spitfireperformance.com/mustang/combat-reports/352-meyer-12may44.jpg

 

I'm amazed by how many pro fortnite gamers and airquake chads the airforce had in WW2

Even the P-38 was the chariot of gamers as it (and a few other WW2 aircraft) had specific maneuver settings on their flaps

http://akvictoria.by/wp-content/uploads/2019/01/P-38-Lightning.pdf pg 53 of this PDF

 

The real reason not to use them post WW2 planes is the turn circles and speeds at which combat is typically happening you get a bigger hit to rate than you really get from the only slightly better radius, and in most of these reports flaps are at like 8 deg, 10 deg 15 if were being generous because of those 20 deg outliers.

 

So while uncommon in WW2 depending on plane type mostly, its dishonest to say 'it never happened'

 

Even Marseille, a know flaps abooser, gained 158 victories

What a noob and a gamer huh?

 

 

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On 5/14/2021 at 4:59 AM, darkman222 said:

So what you're saying is, don't use flaps also because it'll make the Mig 29 accelerate out of a low energy, slow speed situation even worse? Makes sense too. Stick deflection override is the only assignable button that can override something in the Mig. Do you mean that with AOA limiter override?

 

He's probably saying 'use as required'.    The 'required' part of the envelope and actual benefit may be fairly tiny though.    You don't have to worry about damaging the flaps in DCS, but you can probably imagine where a real pilot would use them since they do have to worry about it.  Anyway, it's a game and 'he's a dirty flap user' is a poor excuse for losing a fight 😉

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On 5/19/2021 at 4:32 AM, GGTharos said:

 

He's probably saying 'use as required'.    The 'required' part of the envelope and actual benefit may be fairly tiny though.    You don't have to worry about damaging the flaps in DCS, but you can probably imagine where a real pilot would use them since they do have to worry about it.  Anyway, it's a game and 'he's a dirty flap user' is a poor excuse for losing a fight 😉

You cannot really damage the flaps in the MiG-29 though - they are not locked mechanically in the deployed state(rely only on hydraulic pressure). Just like with the speed brake, there is a "blow-back" feature to protect them - i.e. if you are going too fast with them deployed, they will just retract and if you haven't deployed them at this point, they won't deploy if you try.

 

I cannot remember the speed at which this comes into play, but generally speaking if you can deploy the flaps in a "dogfight", then you energy state is much too low anyway - speed is life :)

 

 

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A blow-back mechanism protects the flaps from over-speeding, not over-g.   I don't know what kind of damage can happen if the flaps are down at that point, but you can certainly exceed their g limit and if at that point there are bendy structures that are made unhappy, well... 🙂

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17 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

A blow-back mechanism protects the flaps from over-speeding, not over-g.   I don't know what kind of damage can happen if the flaps are down at that point, but you can certainly exceed their g limit and if at that point there are bendy structures that are made unhappy, well... 🙂

Not sure I would agree with that - if the forces acting upon the flaps are excessive, they will overcome the hydraulic pressure keeping them down - like I said they are not mechanically locked in the extended position(only in the retracted one).

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 5/20/2021 at 8:51 PM, Seaeagle said:

...

I cannot remember the speed at which this comes into play, but generally speaking if you can deploy the flaps in a "dogfight", then you energy state is much too low anyway - speed is life 🙂

 

 

I think this "speed is life" phrase is a bit over simplified. Sure, if you need to concentrate entire air combat into couple of words, that's fine. However speed on it's own means nothing. Speed in air combat is like having money in normal life. You can cashe it in for something - usually angles or position. The same way you can't eat money, speed alone doesn't mean much.

 

Also, energy is alt+speed, as you can have one fghter high and slow and another low and fast with both of them having the same energy state.

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16 hours ago, Cmptohocah said:

I think this "speed is life" phrase is a bit over simplified. Sure, if you need to concentrate entire air combat into couple of words, that's fine. However speed on it's own means nothing. Speed in air combat is like having money in normal life. You can cashe it in for something - usually angles or position. The same way you can't eat money, speed alone doesn't mean much.

 

Also, energy is alt+speed, as you can have one fghter high and slow and another low and fast with both of them having the same energy state.

Of course its simplified - the point is not to let your energy state drop to a point where you become a sitting duck. You can  cash it in as you say, but even if you achieve a decisive advantage against your direct opponent, you could quickly become an easy target for anyone else around.

 

 

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5 hours ago, Seaeagle said:

..., but even if you achieve a decisive advantage against your direct opponent, you could quickly become an easy target for anyone else around.

 

 

True that, I didn't really concider the big picture.

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