Difference between A GR 135 Early and Late?

[Naquaii]

Just now, near_blind said:

Clearly HB needs to make a spin off: F-14 Depot Maintainer so we can properly experience all the permutations

 

No-one can do that without going stark raving mad...

 

If we've learned anything it's that no fleet aircraft looked like any other.

[WolfHound009]

 
Our intention is to have the Late -A and -B to be ALR-67 and ALQ-126 equipped and the early -A to be ALR-45/50 and ALQ-100 IIRC. When everything is finished externally that is.
 
As for the LANTIRN it indeed used the same antenna as the CDNU upgrade if that was also present, otherwise the antenna was just for the LANTIRN.
 
As for the LANTIRN with the fishbowl we always knew it was an experimental thing that did not see extended fleet usage but we are quite sure that's how it was tested at first even if it was later decided that it wasn't really good enough to display it and thus later relegated to PTID birds. So a loophole? Not necessarily, but the decision was between not including LANTIRN or including it in a version that did exist, if only very briefly.
 
As for the TID in general it was in use right up until very late, there's even photos of a -D model with a fishbowl TID.

Will the Early -A have the TCS Or just the ALQ-100 nub?


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[Naquaii]

Just now, WolfHound009 said:

Will the Early -A have the TCS Or just the ALQ-100 nub?


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Our intention is to have it removable on the USN -As but possible to carry it. The IRIAF -As won't as they never had them.

[WolfHound009]

 
Our intention is to have it removable on the USN -As but possible to carry it. The IRIAF -As won't as they never had them.

Great!, Thanks.


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[LanceCriminal86]

14 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

 

Our intention is to have the Late -A and -B to be ALR-67 and ALQ-126 equipped and the early -A to be ALR-45/50 and ALQ-100 IIRC. When everything is finished externally that is.

 

As for the LANTIRN it indeed used the same antenna as the CDNU upgrade if that was also present, otherwise the antenna was just for the LANTIRN.

 

As for the LANTIRN with the fishbowl we always knew it was an experimental thing that did not see extended fleet usage but we are quite sure that's how it was tested at first even if it was later decided that it wasn't really good enough to display it and thus later relegated to PTID birds. So a loophole? Not necessarily, but the decision was between not including LANTIRN or including it in a version that did exist, if only very briefly.

 

As for the TID in general it was in use right up until very late, there's even photos of a -D model with a fishbowl TID.

 

 

True on the D fishbowl, but I think it's been hashed out as being an entirely different animal to the A/B one.

 

I guess the way I look at it, is that if we're representing the "as first tested" from what, 1994-1996 timeframe that VF-103 and whichever other squadrons were involved with LANTIRN tests as the way to have LANTIRN and fishbowl, then I'm still curious if they had to install the GPS antenna at that time or not. I guess the place to look then is VF-103 from about 1995-1999 and see when GPS domes showed up. Because it may be that the initial tests without the PTID were also before they determined the GPS antenna was needed. The various DTIC presentations and training docs I had read about the whole digital bus upgrades, LANTIRN, PTID, etc. indicated that the LANTIRN's onboard GPS is why it could be used without the Tomcat needing to have its own integrated GPS system like other targeting pods did, so I had delineated that from the adding of a GPS antenna. I'd like to ask around a bit more about it in the Tomcat Association, and I'm sure you guys have already done some of that but I'd like to verify as well. There's a decent chance some folks from the program are in there that did the initial testing, I'm fairly sure I've seen some posts from folks that were either with Strike Test or 103, plus the guys with VF-41 that did the first actual combat drop albeit buddy lased.

 

And I'm personally serious that I would be happy with a visual PTID that's incomplete on the back end outside of the menus and functions we currently have. There are some shots of the PTID pages here and there, and while I know we don't have a 100% breakdown of every single menu page, I feel like it may be possible to map out the PTID enough by interviewing some of the various RIOs out there who may be young enough to remember. Guys like the "Tomcat Cockpit POV" and "Air Tales" Youtube channels look to have been RIOs at the time we are talking about, one in the A with 211 the other in a B with VF-11. 

 

I guess I'm curious if anyone has mapped out a flow of what exactly is known, what is known to be missing, and what might be unknown to get a functional PTID. It may be that by trying to find out what we don't know, we can figure out what the right questions to ask are. I think some folks would be fine with certain pages being unavailable if they aren't directly critical to the operation of the radar or LANTIRN, and if they are backed up by traditional instruments.

[Naquaii]

10 minutes ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

 

True on the D fishbowl, but I think it's been hashed out as being an entirely different animal to the A/B one.

 

I guess the way I look at it, is that if we're representing the "as first tested" from what, 1994-1996 timeframe that VF-103 and whichever other squadrons were involved with LANTIRN tests as the way to have LANTIRN and fishbowl, then I'm still curious if they had to install the GPS antenna at that time or not. I guess the place to look then is VF-103 from about 1995-1999 and see when GPS domes showed up. Because it may be that the initial tests without the PTID were also before they determined the GPS antenna was needed. The various DTIC presentations and training docs I had read about the whole digital bus upgrades, LANTIRN, PTID, etc. indicated that the LANTIRN's onboard GPS is why it could be used without the Tomcat needing to have its own integrated GPS system like other targeting pods did, so I had delineated that from the adding of a GPS antenna. I'd like to ask around a bit more about it in the Tomcat Association, and I'm sure you guys have already done some of that but I'd like to verify as well. There's a decent chance some folks from the program are in there that did the initial testing, I'm fairly sure I've seen some posts from folks that were either with Strike Test or 103, plus the guys with VF-41 that did the first actual combat drop albeit buddy lased.

 

And I'm personally serious that I would be happy with a visual PTID that's incomplete on the back end outside of the menus and functions we currently have. There are some shots of the PTID pages here and there, and while I know we don't have a 100% breakdown of every single menu page, I feel like it may be possible to map out the PTID enough by interviewing some of the various RIOs out there who may be young enough to remember. Guys like the "Tomcat Cockpit POV" and "Air Tales" Youtube channels look to have been RIOs at the time we are talking about, one in the A with 211 the other in a B with VF-11. 

 

I guess I'm curious if anyone has mapped out a flow of what exactly is known, what is known to be missing, and what might be unknown to get a functional PTID. It may be that by trying to find out what we don't know, we can figure out what the right questions to ask are. I think some folks would be fine with certain pages being unavailable if they aren't directly critical to the operation of the radar or LANTIRN, and if they are backed up by traditional instruments.

 

The GPS-antenna is needed for sure, I've never seen an integration schematic that doesn't explicitly state it being there.

 

The issue with the PTID is that we're missing so much, from the top of my head it's something like 10 out of 12 menus that we don't have.

 

And yeah, as far as the F-14D TID it's a different story. The F-14B(U) relied on the PTID for the 1553 bus afaik while the -D didn't.

[LanceCriminal86]

13 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

 

The GPS-antenna is needed for sure, I've never seen an integration schematic that doesn't explicitly state it being there.

 

The issue with the PTID is that we're missing so much, from the top of my head it's something like 10 out of 12 menus that we don't have.

 

And yeah, as far as the F-14D TID it's a different story. The F-14B(U) relied on the PTID for the 1553 bus afaik while the -D didn't.

 

It looks like by 1997 VF-103 had Bs with the GPS antenna, but the angles I have for 95/96 don't show it. I swear I saw them listed in one of the detailed studies of LANTIRN feasibility that they were the fleet squadron that did a bunch of the testing and technically got it first, so they'd be the first ones I'd expect to see it on.

 

Do you guys have a listing of the menus on the PTID? I'd guess you have at least partials for the radar and LANTIRN pages but 12 pages seems like a lot of functions. I'd be curious how many of them were even implemented on the jet. Who knows, might find out some of them weren't in use?

 

Also has it ever been determined if the PTID used was the same or similar to any other airframes?

 

 

-- EDIT: Just found a May 1996 pic from David Brown that shows the GPS dome. I'll keep looking.

Edited May 10, 2021 by LanceCriminal86

[Naquaii]

This is the one I could find at short notice. There seems to be a duplication on the left side so 10 menus available (not 12) from here as far as I can tell, not sure if there were more, seem to remember that there were. But out of those 10 I've seen images of only the nav and sms menues. The normal tactical and navigational displays we kinda have as it's quite similar to the earlier F-14s (Not the TAC menu as that's something else). But there's still a lot to flesh out. And yes, this is the HSD repeat of the PTID, not the PTID itself but still applies.

 

 

 

About the PTID model I think there only were one (which might ofc had upgrades over time) but which could be integrated differently. The first PTID installations were kinda just a drop in replacement which added no new functionalities apart from a bigger screen and moving some controls onto the OSD buttons. In contrast the latest model F-14B(U) seems to be quite different with the more advanced integration seeming to allow for much better LANTIRN functionality and Sparrowhawk integration as well as more advanced navigation programming. I think there also were intermediary versions that had some but not all of that.

 

As with other Tomcat stuff it's really a jungle with a lot of different versions and modifications.

[LanceCriminal86]

1 minute ago, Naquaii said:

This is the one I could find at short notice. There seems to be a duplication on the left side so 10 menus available (not 12) from here as far as I can tell, not sure if there were more, seem to remember that there were. But out of those 10 I've seen images of only the nav and sms menues. The normal tactical and navigational displays we kinda have as it's quite similar to the earlier F-14s (Not the TAC menu as that's something else). But there's still a lot to flesh out. And yes, this is the HSD repeat of the PTID, not the PTID itself but still applies.

 

 

 

About the PTID model I think there only were one (which might ofc had upgrades over time) but which could be integrated differently. The first PTID installations were kinda just a drop in replacement which added no new functionalities apart from a bigger screen and moving some controls onto the OSD buttons. In contrast the latest model F-14B(U) seems to be quite different with the more advanced integration seeming to allow for much better LANTIRN functionality and Sparrowhawk integration as well as more advanced navigation programming. I think there also were intermediary versions that had some but not all of that.

 

As with other Tomcat stuff it's really a jungle with a lot of different versions and modifications.

 

I believe some of the B Upgrade stuff included GPS integrations to combine with INS or replace it? There's a training doc draft from 1998 floating around out there that lays out the highlights of the B (Upgrade) programs:

 

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/ntsp-F14.pdf

 

I've been digging through it a few times to see if perhaps there are training courses or materials that could be somehow requested, or at least redacted copies with only specific portions for the PTID, but I suspect it will be the same issue of either "classified" or "shredded/disposed of".

 

I am curious how much some of the RIOs out there from that 1996-2006 time period could remember. One guy may not have the whole picture but get a bunch of RIOs together with some of the Avionics guys and maybe someone from Honeywell, with some Navy/Grumman approval of some kind, and enough heads might be able to fill in some of the gaps.

 

Another thing, I noticed it's listed elsewhere that the S-3B was LANTIRN capable. Any odd chance it could have used a similar display in the back for the system? Wouldn't that be funny if some critical info were discovered in S-3B documents, in some weird chance the same PTID model was used in it.

[Naquaii]

2 minutes ago, LanceCriminal86 said:

 

I believe some of the B Upgrade stuff included GPS integrations to combine with INS or replace it? There's a training doc draft from 1998 floating around out there that lays out the highlights of the B (Upgrade) programs:

 

https://fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/ac/docs/ntsp-F14.pdf

 

I've been digging through it a few times to see if perhaps there are training courses or materials that could be somehow requested, or at least redacted copies with only specific portions for the PTID, but I suspect it will be the same issue of either "classified" or "shredded/disposed of".

 

I am curious how much some of the RIOs out there from that 1996-2006 time period could remember. One guy may not have the whole picture but get a bunch of RIOs together with some of the Avionics guys and maybe someone from Honeywell, with some Navy/Grumman approval of some kind, and enough heads might be able to fill in some of the gaps.

 

Another thing, I noticed it's listed elsewhere that the S-3B was LANTIRN capable. Any odd chance it could have used a similar display in the back for the system? Wouldn't that be funny if some critical info were discovered in S-3B documents, in some weird chance the same PTID model was used in it.

 

There was a later upgrade that replaced the old mechanical gyro with a new ring laser gyro called EGI and a CDNU that interfaced it and the old navigational system, that also added a GPS.

[TLTeo]

12 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

As with other Tomcat stuff it's really a jungle with a lot of different versions and modifications.

I highly doubt it's specific to the Tomcat too...come to think of it, I think it would be very educational for people who demand year-specific specs in DCS modules to come up with a list of what those exact specs should be

[Naquaii]

Just now, TLTeo said:

I highly doubt it's specific to the Tomcat too...come to think of it, I think it would be very educational for people who demand year-specific specs in DCS modules to come up with a list of what those exact specs should be

 

Well, a lot of aircraft purposefully used/use blocks or equivalent that were quite specific. The Hornet and Viper blocks and lots seems to be set configurations while the airframes within a specific Tomcat block appears to have differed quite a lot from factory, seemingly by having mods being applied as available rather than waiting for a new block denominator.

[TLTeo]

To some extent. Personally, I still have scars from all the discussion about which TGP is appropriate for each, or whether they should carry SDBs/specific JSOWs/<insert fancy new standoff weapon here>

[WolfHound009]

What beaver tail will the -135 GR (early) and the IRAF -95 GR have ? Will it be the early duck tail or the later one ?


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[Naquaii]

5 minutes ago, WolfHound009 said:

What beaver tail will the -135 GR (early) and the IRAF -95 GR have ? Will it be the early duck tail or the later one ?


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Not sure what was decided upon in that regard, I'd have to refer to Cobra or Ironmike.

[LanceCriminal86]

9 minutes ago, Naquaii said:

 

Well, a lot of aircraft purposefully used/use blocks or equivalent that were quite specific. The Hornet and Viper blocks and lots seems to be set configurations while the airframes within a specific Tomcat block appears to have differed quite a lot from factory, seemingly by having mods being applied as available rather than waiting for a new block denominator.

 

That said, there were features per block that were known, ie. older blocks wouldn't have had certain features unless upgraded, but newer blocks for certain had, like the ALQ-126 antennas.

 

I believe Block 110 is where the new style beaver tail and ALQ-126 were added and included on subsequent blocks. So most Block 110 and higher should be visually almost indistinguishable, and systems wise few changes were made. Blocks lower than that had some minor changes like the added nose alpha probe I think at Block 95, and of course the "standard" beaver tail that was used after to the original blocks that hit the fleet which had a slightly different beaver tail, I think in the Block 70 and/or 75 jets when that changed. From what I'm seeing though, it doesn't look like all block changes were retrofitted, for example the ALQ-126 antennas, or the alpha probe on the nosecone. It looks like the only major changes externally were things like reinforcement plates being added to the vertical stabilizers and retrofitted to earlier jets.

 

There were many modifications over time, that's very clear. Some upgrades are pretty clear cut, like gun ports being done by the mid 90s. But just from looking at the groupings of BuNOs from the VF-14 and VF-41 jets that were deployed for Allied Force in 1999, it definitely wasn't unilateral. Not all of their As had the ALR-67 upgrades, something I'm curious to see about what their final Tomcat cruises showed. That training document I linked seems to lay out quite nicely a lot of the performed and planned upgrades as of 1998. I guess the other questions would be whether other systems in years prior like the VHF/UHF antennas were upgraded over time.

 

Really you just have to look at each jet and as many photos as possible to look for obvious cues. I don't think it looks like jets other than the Block 60/65 to 130 rebuilds, and any A to B/D conversions went back for a significant block to block overhaul, like I'm not seeing Block 95s that later got the ALQ-126 and upgraded beaver tail, ALR-67, etc. So to some degrees the jets did stay as-delivered with upgrades under the skin, but only to a certain point where it seems the Navy prioritized lower time airframes and newer blocks for upgrades. That's why those rebuilt Block 60/65s lasted so long in service, because they actually got a mid-life refresh when Grumman remanufactured them in the mid 80s. Before that they were all the testbed jets at Pax River and VX-4, etc. 158612 was the oldest Tomcat to serve in the fleet, being a Block 60, #612 at Pax, later sent to Davis Monthan, then back to Grumman where it was rebuilt to Block 130 or 135 specs, from there to VF-202, to VF-201 after 202 shut down, and then lastly to VF-41 through late 2001 before going to mothballs/death in early 2002. 

[Victory205]

Are you boys pilots or Trainspotters™? 

 

Load up the sim and go kill something. Your victim won’t care if you had the correct bumps on your fuselage while he’s drifting down in his chute.

[AH_Solid_Snake]

Everyone loves the F-14 their own way...personally I’m fascinated to hear what LanceCriminal has found, particularly around the PTID.

 

For those of us on the outside looking in there are many aspects to the jet that seem strangely undocumented.

[captain_dalan]

3 hours ago, Victory205 said:

Are you boys pilots or Trainspotters™? 

 

NERDS! Most of us are aviation nerds! Hence the obsessing over all sort of details

[Spiceman]

For all of this talk of block this and block that, I don’t remember ever hearing the word “block” uttered in my 10 years in the F-14 community. The planes just were what they were. Some had this upgrade (AFC) and some had that upgrade, but the word “block” was just not in anyone’s vocabulary that I recall. 

[Victory205]

2 hours ago, Spiceman said:

For all of this talk of block this and block that, I don’t remember ever hearing the word “block” uttered in my 10 years in the F-14 community. The planes just were what they were. Some had this upgrade (AFC) and some had that upgrade, but the word “block” was just not in anyone’s vocabulary that I recall. 

 

Exactly. I didn’t know what “Block” aircraft we had, until some RIO mentioned it in passing, and we had a mix. 

 

Of course I understand that that “enthusiasts” enjoy different aspects of an avocation, but man, go fly, practice something tactical before you turn into VP pilots complaining about your per diem checks, travel vouchers and airline applications.

[RaisedByWolves]

What about glove vanes?(sarcasm)

[LanceCriminal86]

58 minutes ago, Victory205 said:

 

Exactly. I didn’t know what “Block” aircraft we had, until some RIO mentioned it in passing, and we had a mix. 

 

Of course I understand that that “enthusiasts” enjoy different aspects of an avocation, but man, go fly, practice something tactical before you turn into VP pilots complaining about your per diem checks, travel vouchers and airline applications.

 

Right now every time I try to hop in and fly, I get more annoyed by the rest of the DCS engine (you know, UFO AI jets, 3d asset models from 1995, missiles and Jester doing lord knows what except killing targets, "Supercarriers" that still only have 4 terrible spawn points, bombs that have no splash damage to speak of that kind of kills the mood of doing some CAS, and the fact that ED chose to lock up all the LUAs that helped with some of those issues), to the point where I get a lot more enjoyment out of researching and painting jets. I mean yeah, we got pretty new clouds for taking screenshots. Unfortunate side effect of ADHD and maybe a dab of autism that comes out of staring at and searching for photos of specific BuNOs to get them just right is that you start to look at all the "stupid" little details, what block a jet was, stencils that were different on one airframe than another, patches or repairs to, that kind of stuff. That leads to wanting as many of the details to be right, which leads to getting on Cobra's s*** list for poking about ALQ-126 antennas and beaver tails.

 

I'll endeavor to get the T-45C loaded and try to just work on the Case I pattern for a while. That, and I need to see if this Virpil stick and extension help with A2A refueling, where I felt like I needed a much gentler and finer control over my T16000M. 

 

And honestly, one of the things I've enjoyed most out of some of this full blown autism is that it led me to actually get to talk to some of the folks from VF-201 about the jet, their time in the squadron, guys digging out logbooks and shoeboxes of old photos, remembering names, and generally having a good time listening. They've been super generous with photos and whatever information they have, or have gotten me in touch with the guys that had it. It's not every day you get to chat with the pilot and RIO (who was the CO) about a digital jet you've spent well over a year working on. It's also kind of fun getting guys back on the gear doors who wrenched on these jets and worked to be the plane captains; a guy was looking for pics of his name on the gear door and sure enough I had one stashed away, and naturally since it was the jet I was working on I put him on there. It may seem weird but to me it's cool that some years from now people are going to maybe see some guy's name on a landing gear door, or on a canopy rail, and a little piece of history is preserved. And, it's been cool to see a bunch of those VF-201 and 202 jets, some of which you almost certainly had hours in Victory, went and put warheads on foreheads with VF-14, VF-41, VF-211, and I think even VF-154 there in 2001-2004 or so.

 

I'd really like DCS performance with VR to get to a more accessible level. The parts I really struggle with in the pattern involve trying to watch my airspeed, altitude, AOA, etc. while also looking over my shoulder at the boat to try and gauge when to make turns, and it always turns to garbage (no pun intended). Not that having the Supercarrier/LSO dialed for Hornets helps that last part of the pattern any.

[Victory205]

Your Callsign is now “Spotter”. Bon appetite!

 

The T45 is a nice little mod for doing CQ patterns. It’s approach speed at max trap is only 125 KIAS, so your pattern will be closer to the ship, around .9 to 1.0 NM. However, the carrier TACAN is a bit flukey as it doesn’t always move with the ship!

 

The cockpit will drive your ADHD into afterburner because the HUD is very difficult to read, so you need to reference the backup instruments, which have long, generic needles which make them difficult to read. Typical ASI’s, VSI’s and Altimeters are painted only on the business end to make the value they represent instantly recognizable. I find the ADI speed and altitude read outs almost unusable. Might want to try putting the HUD repeater on one of the screens.

 

The FM is OK, the aircraft is a little faster than it should be at altitude, and it’s excessively pitch sensitive (only module I’ve needed to put an axis curve in) but fun nonetheless.

 

It lands flat, as does the real jet, so if you are fast or flat over the ramp, you’ll bolter.

 

Oh, and when there is weight on wheels, the gear struts don’t compress. Just thought I’d mention that so it doesn’t bother you…

 

It’s a neat little trainer, have fun SPOTTER!

[Victory205]

BTW, because of the limitations of a desktop sim, controllers, refresh rates, etc, all of the DCS modules are probably a little more challenging than they should be to accomplish various tasks.

 

The F14 currently has some quirks in the landing configuration (it’s also too forgiving in some ways). It takes an enormous amount of time to tune the variables, especially in performance. 

 

The entire team is working hard to get it right. Be patient, you can still learn a lot about flying the module as it sits today.

Edited May 11, 2021 by Victory205