fuel guage does not react to refueling when central droptank mounted and jettisoned

[rogorogo]

this was supposed to be an entry in https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/bug_report_page.php - but a constant activity/spam message made this impossible (will keep trying though):

 

build:
DCS 2.7.0.5659 Open Beta

 

description:
fuel gauge does not react to refueling when central droptank mounted and jettisoned.

workaround is using airframe REPAIR, then gauge snaps to correct value

 

steps:

• - central droptank
• - fly mission
• - jettison tank
• - land
• - RRR
• - notice fuel gauge not reacting to REFUEL

 

additional info:

DRAG CHUTE legacy bug also still aplies, also gets only replenished via AIRFRAME REPAIR

original description was far more extensive and suitable, but was lost because system reporting activity limit and SPAM

 

exemplary screenshots AFTER full REFUEL and AFTER airframe REPAIR

 

update:

hah... waddayaknow.. it might actually have been correctly saved on mantishub
https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/view.php?id=1134

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by rogorogo
added build, added mantishub potential link

[Maxthrust]

Fuel gauge can't measure the actual amount remaining as not all fuel tanks plumbed with measuring sensors. Instead, there are signal lights for the wing, ventral and no.1 tanks when they are actually empty. Pilot then confirms the remaining fuel reading and adjusts the gauge if necessary. However, in DCS, the gauge always reads the actual amount except when the ventral and/or wing tanks are jettisoned before they are actually empty. In that case, a quick adjustment to the fuel gage to indicate ~2750 L is necessary. Otherwise everything is auto-set when you refuel.

 

I haven't notice any other abnormalities, I hope this helps.

 

note: I usually don't carry empty tanks around so it is rare for me to land with them.

[rogorogo]

vor einer Stunde schrieb Maxthrust:

Fuel gauge can't measure the actual amount remaining as not all fuel tanks plumbed with measuring sensors. Instead, there are signal lights for the wing, ventral and no.1 tanks when they are actually empty. Pilot then confirms the remaining fuel reading and adjusts the gauge if necessary. However, in DCS, the gauge always reads the actual amount except when the ventral and/or wing tanks are jettisoned before they are actually empty. In that case, a quick adjustment to the fuel gage to indicate ~2750 L is necessary. Otherwise everything is auto-set when you refuel.

 

I haven't notice any other abnormalities, I hope this helps.

 

note: I usually don't carry empty tanks around so it is rare for me to land with them.

well yes.. thank you.

But carefull... we are mixing a potential bug , player agency and oversight and the general ergonimic dadaist art experience that is the "21er" (and what makes it so great, makes us being cognitively involved with it all the time) here

The intended module behaviour thus far was that the RRR (or rather RR, the third R is a different quickcomm groundcrew action) did the "auto set" for the pilot (no application of the knob) as the dropped/jettisoned tank was replaced and all tanks (internal and external) fueled after (fueling sound coming on in the absence of animated external generators or fuel trucks, service crew aso aso).
That both actions sometimes happen at the same time, sometimes after each other, sometimes need to be triggered in quickcom one after the other in separate lines at the same place (in the very same server on the same settings version) does not help either (nor that the accidental amiguity in formulation of the original model manual that also 1:1 transferred into the Chuck's guide)  - but that is #justDCSthings, ;).

 

And this - thus far - intended module behaviour of RR triggering the auto-set does not work/trigger under the conditions described in the bug report (if it was really saved, otherwise the shorter version in the OP).

If said behaviour is good/bad/improvable/accessible to server settings overrides I would not dare judge. To this day I am never really sure if I use the pump switches to drain my "ventral external fuselage droptank" first and if it is reaaaallly empty as far as it should be (by my actions) when the light comes on - so while an interesting threoretical discussion beyond the potential bug for sure... we would need someone more competent than me to participate.
Maybe I can finally figure out what do to better.. and maybe even use my pump group switches to have the best CoG in the airframe at all times.
But nonetheless - this mix of comfort auto-sets and full-sim fidelity in the native module behaviour can be tricky.. especially as it is not properly described anywhere at source (extensive playerbase knowledge accumulated over time nonwithstanding - but that is not a primary source).

P.S. need to copy that in my mantis report though.. for clarity and to avoid ambiguity.. so again.. thank you.. never thought of that angle of potential misunderstanding.

 

P.S. I seldom land with empty external tanks... but not because I am that dilligent. I just seldom get to land anyway - if someone or something does not shoot me down.. a TREE clearly working for the other team usually gets a maneuver-frag on my poor "supersonic traktor of the people"

Edited May 7, 2021 by rogorogo

[Maxthrust]

You may have a point on the MP server side of the things. Perhaps this is not occurring to me as I always repair first if necessary and then refuel & rearm. If the server allows F2 external view then I also check my loadout visually as sometimes the ground crew only partially rearms the plane due to restrictions set out in the mission or corruptions due to new patches etc.

 

Procedure is to turn on all three fuel pumps after startup which should ensure the ventral tank is drained first if it is not the case. Keep an eye on the ventral tank empty light when it starts flickering. The light will stay illuminated once the tank is empty, and the gauge should read around 2750 L. 

 

Dead weight of the tank or the CoG shift is negligible when compared to its drag and it should be jettisoned now, then your best range on the deck is at 690 kph with two missiles.

 

Further reading:

 

https://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=366

 

Happy flying!

 

 

 

 

Edited May 7, 2021 by Maxthrust
bad grammar as usual

[rogorogo]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb Maxthrust:

You may have a point on the MP server side of the things. Perhaps this is not occurring to me as I always repair first if necessary and then refuel & rearm. If the server allows F2 external view then I also check my loadout visually as sometimes the ground crew only partially rearms the plane due to restrictions set out in the mission or corruptions due to new patches etc.

 

Procedure is to turn on all three fuel pumps after startup which should ensure the ventral tank is drained first if it is not the case. Keep an eye on the ventral tank empty light when it starts flickering. The light will stay illuminated once the tank is empty, and the gauge should read around 2750 L. 

 

Dead weight of the tank or the CoG shift is negligible when compared to its drag and it should be jettisoned now, then your best range on the deck is at 690 kph with two missiles.

 

Further reading:

 

https://www.476vfightergroup.com/downloads.php?do=file&id=366

 

Happy flying!

 

 

 

 

 

well.. thank you again.
And that was my SOP thus far, all 3 pump groups and drop the central tank once the light is on, not flickering and has been on for a while (nice manual, what a find). 
There used to be a tweak too.. as the module can never be a full fidelity simULATOR but I am not sure if that still applies.
Basically you shut one of the groups off so the drainage tank would be ensured to get only pumped into from the external one... but again.. I think that does no longer apply.

I also leave them on all the time... despite the internal ones being gravity-fed in theory - and lo and behold, just yesterday managed to trigger a flameout in soft-nose-down-pitch-down-stick-forward in supercruise nonetheless... naturally too low to achieve and emergency restart (back to rolling nose over like a Schpitfeuer we shall!)

As for the MPside... I was referring to the servers with no external views and the most sim settings available. I only noticed as I was just flying around enjoying the changed vistas (even at my humble settings) and surviving AND having a soft landing thus did not repair first (as is usually the case).

Actually... I now have to test if that gauge-bug also manifests when I repair first (as it might help tracing the source)... well.. a normal landing of mine should do (burst tires are a given as I enjoy my supersonic traktors combat landing speed of around mach ,97 )

Edited May 7, 2021 by rogorogo
typos

[Maxthrust]

I am glad you find the manual interesting. It is pretty straightforward, and to my understanding the gauge is actually a calculator and without a leak in the system it provides a good estimate. Table 8 on pg 38 lists the fuel gauge readings with respect to five fuel tank empty lights during the flight as they illuminate in sequence. Pumps are turned off to prevent damage but thanks god we are not dealing with that kind of detail here. Flameouts due to fuel starvation by pulling negative or zero g over the limited times are still possible, just another example of the keeping the jet within the multiple flight envelope challenges. I don't think the F-5 has any of this  detail touches in comparison. 

 

 

[rogorogo]

Of course I find it interesting, because it shows the quirkyness and make-do-with-what-is-there of many solution approaches. 
And even the manual itself on its own is quite interesting.

As for the rest:
Well... I have to admit, I do not own the F-5 module. Simply because it never had garnered any interest from me. For a multitude of reasons. 
But when limited to the scope of DCS I always liked the "21er" for it being like the Eastern Block Lightning. You have to actually "fly" it, hands on, fully involved, all the time, even on taxi...

Just making it to 5k from Anapa and reaching Sochi with the external tank in supercruise before diving into the mountains with still a full internal load to go has a special feel to it.
Not that I ever got to really enjoy it since I bought it many years ago.. I get to fly it once in a while (I also definitely need to replace my DCS rig soon™ - again) - and then a long pause will ensure me to stay insufficient in PC-flying it  .

Same goes for the 29 (one day maybe in full fidelity, and hopefully from the "A" era, while the "K" could go Kuznetov, it would be out of date, and the 29II would be an entirely different airframe that just looks the same) - it flies, exceptionally, and you have to fly it. With dampeners, not fly-by-wire while nintento-gameboy-SPAMRAMing. Pulling a tailslide, a cobra airbrake, just landing it, seeing the Vortex as a properly simulated event feels involved (even in the PFM but lowfid FC3 airframe) - but flying that one is even more scarse.

The many details, the attention to detail makes the entire flight enjoyable, there is no lull.. in fact any lull is a welcome break to take a sip from a cup of tea, or coffee (as if the Migski Traktorski supersoniski of ze people did not wake one up all by itself).

Which is why I got the Hind - you have to be proactive, not reactive. Which is why I am afraid if the Ligthning comes out as a proper module  - where to find the time, where to find the server suitable to fully experience and enjoy all these aiframes properly, in a fitting scenario, with other people... in proper PvA.
Hmm.. despite staying focused... too many proper airframes for proper involvment already for what time there is.
lol

[Skysurfer]

You need to set the gauge manually to match the fuel.

[Frederf]

Here's a track of a full MiG-21 plus 490L tank taking off and landing and then refuel/rearming.

 

As can be seen the airplane lands with ~2000L remaining and after refueling nothing happens. Then after rearming happens (which is inevitable some seconds after refueling) which does  set the fuel gauge. However the fuel gauge is set to a quantity appropriate for a full internal and empty external tank. This is correct because the external tank is still empty. Refueling does not refuel external tanks in DCS. Also rearming won't exchange the empty tank with a full one.

 

It can also be seen that the drag parachute is replenished at the rearm complete event.

mig-refuel.trk

[rogorogo]

vor 17 Stunden schrieb Frederf:

Here's a track of a full MiG-21 plus 490L tank taking off and landing and then refuel/rearming.

 

As can be seen the airplane lands with ~2000L remaining and after refueling nothing happens. Then after rearming happens (which is inevitable some seconds after refueling) which does  set the fuel gauge. However the fuel gauge is set to a quantity appropriate for a full internal and empty external tank. This is correct because the external tank is still empty. Refueling does not refuel external tanks in DCS. Also rearming won't exchange the empty tank with a full one.

 

It can also be seen that the drag parachute is replenished at the rearm complete event.

mig-refuel.trk 304 kB · 1 Download

can you please add the track and your comment to my bug report:
https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/view.php?id=1134

I think this would help a lot to trace and clarify.
 

Moreso since in my variant I had some events "snap" the tanks to capacity with or without the gauge "snapping" into auto-set (and the intended work state for either is not clear), but this just shows a general issue.. possibly with an EagleD blackbox function. So the more structured and tagged the information is available, the better that is might one day get resolved.  

[Frederf]

You're welcome to add it. This particular track does not show the needle failing to react. Perhaps you want one that does.

[rogorogo]

vor 3 Stunden schrieb Frederf:

You're welcome to add it. This particular track does not show the needle failing to react. Perhaps you want one that does.

well.. I added screenshots originally.. but if you happen to have one... ty in advance... otherwise.... too much effort.
It should be clear what the issue, the topical and the behavioural ambiguity is.
This is just a bug report about unusual, unclear, arbitrary function behaviour, not a "I need, we need, gib, REEE" anything  .

Again, you can directly add and comment, without having to create any account or verification at: https://leatherneck-sim.mantishub.io/view.php?id=1134

[rossmum]

Have never encountered this one personally. The gauge will reset as the last step of refuel/rearm but as you said you jettisoned the tank, we can rule out the usual misundertstanding of thinking that an empty tank was refilled/replaced. As long as you wait for the ground crew to tell you that the rearm is complete, your fuel gauge should be set correctly, your countermeasures refilled, and your chute repacked. If you begin moving before the ground crew state that the rearm is complete, none of those actions will be performed regardless of whether you saw your weapons and/or drop tanks replaced.