correct as is F-5 no rudder input needed to maintain coordinated turns

[SMH]

Could we see, like, the cover? What is that?

[bbrz]

The exact title is 

 

          T-38A

        PILOT'S

BRIEFING NOTES

 

northrop corporation.

[SMH]

The A-10C is doing it too! Even with Yaw SAS turned off! This CANNOT be right!

Can we please have a developer verify that the variable that was previously used to enable auto-rudder is actually set to off and not on or undefined, please?

[Moriarty]

Did you check the control overlay for inputs you didn’t make?

[303_Kermit]

God I like these game. FM is based on actual data - not peoples opinions. Being a fan of some other module (I won't make an advert here) I being constantly amazed by DCS

 

BTW...

Why everyone who ever flew a glider, or Cessna 40 thinks that he's FM expert?

Edited May 27, 2021 by 303_Kermit

[bbrz]

58 minutes ago, 303_Kermit said:

FM is based on actual data - not peoples opinions. Being a fan of some other module (I won't make an advert here) I being constantly amazed by DCS

I'm amazed that ED didn't even get flight model right on the basic Yak-52, so SMHs doubts are not unfounded.   

What's a Cessna 40?

Edited May 28, 2021 by bbrz

[Nealius]

7 hours ago, SMH said:

The A-10C is doing it too! Even with Yaw SAS turned off! This CANNOT be right!

Can we please have a developer verify that the variable that was previously used to enable auto-rudder is actually set to off and not on or undefined, please?

 

A-10C has an ARI: Aileron Rudder Interconnect. 

 

[SMH]

2 hours ago, Nealius said:

 

A-10C has an ARI: Aileron Rudder Interconnect. 

 

 

Not according to T.O. 1A-10C-1 - Flight Manual - A-10C (02-04-2012) . "ARI" never occurs as a single word and "interconnect" is only mentioned 6 times, in connection to the fuel system, elevator to elevator connection, ejection handles, and radio keys. 

And again, all these personal attacks when I'm just trying to help. Some of you seem to think ED can make no errors, but they've changed this recently so if it's perfect now then it must have been wrong in all of these planes before. You all know if I had come in here a year ago saying it was wrong to see adverse yaw in all these planes that the exact same people would be attacking me, telling me I have no right to an understanding of the physics of flight, exactly the same as they're doing now. Very ugly and unhelpful! 

[bbrz]

19 minutes ago, SMH said:

 

Not according to T.O. 1A-10C-1 - Flight Manual - A-10C (02-04-2012) . "ARI" never occurs as a single word and "interconnect" is only mentioned 6 times, in connection to the fuel system, elevator to elevator connection, ejection handles, and radio keys. 
 

Page 55 from the manual you linked:   

The dual channel SAS provides rate damping in both the pitch and yaw axis as well as automatic turn coordination. (obviously an ARI)

 

This feature is being called ARI in the A-10A -1.

 

 

 

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by bbrz

[SMH]

1 minute ago, bbrz said:

Page 55 from the manual you linked:   

The dual channel SAS provides rate damping in both the pitch and yaw axis as well as automatic turn coordination.

 

This feature is being called ARI in the A-10A -1.

 

 

 

 

 

As I already mentioned, I tested with Yaw SAS off as well as on and saw absolutely no difference either way. (All my tests were done with my feet off the pedals.)

 

[bbrz]

The problem with your posts is that you don't seem to accept facts you don't like. 

 

You are making statements like: It's physically impossible for a banking aircraft to not exhibit adverse yaw.

 

We provide info that this is not always the case and your reaction is that you are suddenly talking about a different aircraft and claim that there's no ARI.

 

Again you are proven wrong. Your reaction? If I turn the SAS off, the A-10 doesn't react the way it should.   

But that's a different story and not all failure cases are simulated in all DCS aircraft.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by bbrz

[cofcorpse]

On 5/27/2021 at 11:07 AM, SMH said:

Oh and I remember now! A while back auto-rudder was added to the options and defaulted to ON, which caused all kinds of problems until they took it out completely. But what if those 3 planes (and possibly others) still have whatever variable that setting use to control activated?

Hi! I'm sorry but I don't see such option in F-5 special options tab. Could you point me where this option is?

Also, there is a lot of discussion, but I haven't seen a single track showing a problem. Not here, not in other threads.

Could you make a track showing a problem? It will help to understand what is wrong in your opinion.

I'm asking the track because I just launched F-5 and ball is not centered during turns, rolls, split throttle, etc.

Thanks!

[Frederf]

On 5/26/2021 at 3:56 PM, SMH said:

The yaw damper, like the pitch damper, is there to reduce oscillation. They don't bias the rudder's central position to counteract side-slip like an FCS does.

That's not true. There are "yaw SAS" systems that do turn coordination. The T-38 says that it doesn't require rudder input below about 20 units AOA. "Not required" probably doesn't mean "is perfect" but some kind of acceptable.

[SMH]

17 hours ago, cofcorpse said:

Hi! I'm sorry but I don't see such option in F-5 special options tab. Could you point me where this option is?

Also, there is a lot of discussion, but I haven't seen a single track showing a problem. Not here, not in other threads.

Could you make a track showing a problem? It will help to understand what is wrong in your opinion.

I'm asking the track because I just launched F-5 and ball is not centered during turns, rolls, split throttle, etc.

Thanks!

It was a feature that appeared for a while then was removed. I'm thinking it might have stuck on when it was removed. 

I'll try to find the Changelog where they said they removed it. AFAIK it was never announced, it just snuck in there at some point. Defaulted to ON too and caused a lot of confusion. 

And I never said the ball is centered during split throttle. (But what DOES happen is turning will make the ball go to center! Regardless of which way you turn!)

And you're telling me the ball isn't dead center when you're pulling hard in a level turn? Really? 

[Golo]

Behaves fine to me, tested it yesterday. On roll into the turn ball shows little adverse yaw (maybe ball/half a ball off center, depends) and once in turn (30° to 60° level turns) ball leans into the turn as to slightly touch the lower line (into the turn) which can be corrected by lightly stepping on ball (but is not necessary). When slow and configured for landing the effect is little bit more pronounced. Tested only with SAS ON. Imho F-5s FM is solid, its problems lies elsewhere.     

[cofcorpse]

1 hour ago, SMH said:

It was a feature that appeared for a while then was removed. I'm thinking it might have stuck on when it was removed. 

...
And you're telling me the ball isn't dead center when you're pulling hard in a level turn? Really? 

As far as I remember, F-5E never had such option. At least I didn't add it to special options and didn't make any autorudder helper.

Yes, I'm exactly telling you this - the ball is not dead center. Furthermore, I watched angle of sideslip and it is not 0 during various maneuvers.

This is why we (developers and testers) ask to make a track and attach it to any bug report. There could be some specific conditions, like simplified avionics, specific bug, user's error.

[Machalot]

1 hour ago, SMH said:

And you're telling me the ball isn't dead center when you're pulling hard in a level turn? Really? 

The harder you pull, the more centered the ball will be without rudder. How hard are you pulling in these turns? 

[SMH]

1 hour ago, cofcorpse said:

As far as I remember, F-5E never had such option. At least I didn't add it to special options and didn't make any autorudder helper.

Yes, I'm exactly telling you this - the ball is not dead center. Furthermore, I watched angle of sideslip and it is not 0 during various maneuvers.

This is why we (developers and testers) ask to make a track and attach it to any bug report. There could be some specific conditions, like simplified avionics, specific bug, user's error.

It was a global option. I forget if it was called auto-rudder or easy-flight or what. It was defaulting to ON, so many people didn't know it was affecting them. 

Working on getting you a track. 


 

1 hour ago, Machalot said:

The harder you pull, the more centered the ball will be without rudder. How hard are you pulling in these turns? 

Same result regardless. 

[SMH]

3 hours ago, cofcorpse said:

As far as I remember, F-5E never had such option. At least I didn't add it to special options and didn't make any autorudder helper.

Yes, I'm exactly telling you this - the ball is not dead center. Furthermore, I watched angle of sideslip and it is not 0 during various maneuvers.

This is why we (developers and testers) ask to make a track and attach it to any bug report. There could be some specific conditions, like simplified avionics, specific bug, user's error.

Almost everyone here has been telling me it shouldn't exhibit any adverse yaw, so nice that you agree it should. 

Maybe there's just the slightest bit of yaw showing. The ball is still well within the lines but perhaps just slightly towards the direction of turn. I'd expect more and could have sworn it was more in the past. (And again, the F-86 and MiG-15 are doing the same thing. I know for sure the MiG-15 changed as I used to fly it a lot, then put it aside for a while, and coming back to it now, it's a very different plane. Feels too easy.)


 

F-5Turning01.trk

Edited May 31, 2021 by SMH

[Machalot]

57 minutes ago, SMH said:

Almost everyone here has been telling me it shouldn't exhibit any adverse yaw, so nice that you agree it should. 

It depends under what conditions. With ailerons deflected into the turn such as at the start of the turn, there should be adverse yaw for some aircraft. But once the turn is established and the ailerons return to near-neutral or slightly counter, there should be very little adverse yaw.  Do you disagree? 

[cofcorpse]

15 hours ago, SMH said:

Almost everyone here has been telling me it shouldn't exhibit any adverse yaw, so nice that you agree it should...

Thanks for the track. Adverse yaw (i.e. yaw during roll) is present, and is quite noticeable. During turns there is almost no slipping and skidding. Almost none, but still present. The ball is not dead center as you've mentioned.

So, in conclusion, I don't see any problem here. Until some stronger arguments I'll consider this to be correct as is.

[Yo-Yo]

F-5 is not the only plane that does not require rudder to coordinate turns. L-39, for example, does the same.

[SMH]

3 hours ago, cofcorpse said:

Thanks for the track. Adverse yaw (i.e. yaw during roll) is present, and is quite noticeable. During turns there is almost no slipping and skidding. Almost none, but still present. The ball is not dead center as you've mentioned.

So, in conclusion, I don't see any problem here. Until some stronger arguments I'll consider this to be correct as is.

What about the F-86, MiG-15 and A-10C which now do the same?

When was this changed on all these planes? Why?

Also, is "slipping and skidding" not "adverse yaw"?

2 hours ago, Yo-Yo said:

F-5 is not the only plane that does not require rudder to coordinate turns. L-39, for example, does the same.

It used to. When was it changed?

I feel like I'm flying an oversimplified sim now. 

Also, you seem to be contradicting each other. cofcorpse is saying we should see adverse yaw and that we do and that my track shows it (despite my screen capture showing none). Yo-Yo is saying that we shouldn't see adverse yaw at all and that we don't. How can it be both?

Edited June 1, 2021 by SMH

[GGTharos]

This is not what Yo-Yo said.  He said rudder is not required to coordinate, no that there is no adverse yaw at all.

[bbrz]

3 hours ago, SMH said:

Also, is "slipping and skidding" not "adverse yaw"?

Definitely not and one of both obviously couldn't be the result of adverse yaw.