TID Variations (NOT A PTID DISCUSSION)

[Whiskey11]

So tonight I was flying with the 107th during the Liberation campaign and during the debrief, one of the RIOs brought up a TID Upgrade which involved having both the range/altitude and bearing/course information displayed across the top of the TID when locked onto a target.  I was able to find ONE picture of the TID Upgrade:

 

And a video showing the information across the top in STT at around the 6 Minute 58 second mark.

 

Does anyone have any information about this upgrade?  This video is from around the 1990's (A-7 Corsair still on the deck of the carrier).  Is there a way to get this to display like that in our F-14A or B?

Edited May 4, 2021 by Whiskey11

[near_blind]

Take it with a grain of salt (I've been wrong before with that video), but I think that's from VF-301 doing a carrier qual on Ranger in 1986. 

http://www.gonavy.jp/CV-CV61f.html

 

If that's the case, it should be kosher for our F-14B and late A. 

[Whiskey11]

50 minutes ago, near_blind said:

Take it with a grain of salt (I've been wrong before with that video), but I think that's from VF-301 doing a carrier qual on Ranger in 1986. 

http://www.gonavy.jp/CV-CV61f.html

 

If that's the case, it should be kosher for our F-14B and late A. 

 

It's definitely early, some A-7's still on deck.  The F-14's at the end definitely appear to be VF-301's F-14A's based upon the arrow on the tail (seen at 11:42).  Patches on their shoulders definitely match.  It could also be VF-103 which had a similar livery with the arrow on the vertical stabs but the patches don't look anything like the one on the crew's flight suits.

Wikipedia says VF-301's first carrier landings were on Ranger in 1988 and it'd make sense to document that somehow.  VF-301 was disbanded in 1994 and VF-103 stopped flying -A's in 1989, so regardless, our birds are newer.

At any rate, I'm really quite curious about the TID and it displaying all that information.  If anyone has details, that'd be awesome!

Edited May 4, 2021 by Whiskey11

[near_blind]

It'd definitely be nice to have a intermediate copy of the NATOPs, from either the late 80s or early 90s. The ones you can find online are either from 1972 and reference the initial configuration of the A, or from the early 2000s and reference the F-14B post adoption of the PTID and newer navigation system.

[Whiskey11]

14 minutes ago, near_blind said:

It'd definitely be nice to have a intermediate copy of the NATOPs, from either the late 80s or early 90s. The ones you can find online are either from 1972 and reference the initial configuration of the A, or from the early 2000s and reference the F-14B post adoption of the PTID and newer navigation system.

 

I'll have to do some digging when I get up tonight (night shift things... yay!).  I messaged Ward Carroll on his YT channel to see if he can assist in any way.  I'd love to have all that information available to the RIO on one display if possible!  Makes call outs much less awkward since they currently have to wait for it to cycle the information!

[Naquaii]

We do know about the double line TID readouts but as far as we've found that was related to the later software tapes that we don't have any information about. Likely the same software tapes that added TID menu functionality.

 

Our current implementation with the alternating standard readout was slightly earlier than that and shows more or less the same information but a bit slower.

 

The latest -B we model might've had the two line readout IRL but we just don't know and even if we knew for sure we're lacking the needed information for that, that's why we chose to stick with the current implementation.

[Whiskey11]

5 hours ago, Naquaii said:

We do know about the double line TID readouts but as far as we've found that was related to the later software tapes that we don't have any information about. Likely the same software tapes that added TID menu functionality.

 

Our current implementation with the alternating standard readout was slightly earlier than that and shows more or less the same information but a bit slower.

 

The latest -B we model might've had the two line readout IRL but we just don't know and even if we knew for sure we're lacking the needed information for that, that's why we chose to stick with the current implementation.

Without diving into BU No's for VF-301, these are all F-14A's from the late 1980's to at the latest, 1994 (VF-301 disbanded then), so hopefully, if we can find the relevant information, this would be something which could be applied to all of our F-14's except the early!   

Appreciate your response Naquaii!

[The_Tau]

5 hours ago, Naquaii said:

We do know about the double line TID readouts but as far as we've found that was related to the later software tapes that we don't have any information about. Likely the same software tapes that added TID menu functionality.

 

Our current implementation with the alternating standard readout was slightly earlier than that and shows more or less the same information but a bit slower.

 

The latest -B we model might've had the two line readout IRL but we just don't know and even if we knew for sure we're lacking the needed information for that, that's why we chose to stick with the current implementation.

Any chance adding Target Aspect angle for locked/hooked bandit? This info seem very important for Intercept Geometry and it seem weird that its missing... Do RIOs really calculated it in their head?

[Naquaii]

7 minutes ago, The_Tau said:

Any chance adding Target Aspect angle for locked/hooked bandit? This info seem very important for Intercept Geometry and it seem weird that its missing... Do RIOs really calculated it in their head?

 

We're kinda trying to avoid adding things we don't have documentation for. We don't know what other upgrades or modifications that display depended on so unless we find more information regarding this whole configuration I'd say that's a no for now.

[near_blind]

Found some more variants of the AAA-1. The Double Line doesn't appear to be present in the 1984 version (Tape 111E/P7E), but is present in the 1997 version (Tapes 115B/P15B). It seems a copy of the accompanying AAA-1A would be required to determine anything more meaningful.

[Karon]

On 5/4/2021 at 9:38 PM, The_Tau said:

Any chance adding Target Aspect angle for locked/hooked bandit? This info seem very important for Intercept Geometry and it seem weird that its missing... Do RIOs really calculated it in their head?

I cannot answer for the post-IQT training program but the docs I have push the trainee to learn to do the maths almost instantaneously. The P-825/02 is quite hilarious in this (yes, bold and underline are exactly as they appear in the documentation lol):

• "To execute the intercept, aircrew must be able to accurately and  instantaneously determine heading reciprocals around the compass rose. This requires constant  practice!" - p21

• "Because of the complexity of the above procedures, it is necessary that the weapons officer  memorize the following table such that displacement points and ranges can be instantly recalled." - p62

• "The correct counterturn sequences are listed below. They must be committed to memory for  instant recall." - p76

I think this mantra is repeated a few more times, but you get the idea. Eventually, after some practice, calculating the TA is a matter of 3-4 seconds top, sometimes even less, especially if you use BR→BB with a human AIC or you are in timeline in the point and assess, so ATA is zero and Cut = TA.

 

What I find interesting is that a good chunk of the "bedrock" geometry procedures are dropped in the P-825/17 and the documentation even says that the Cut is basically outdated. On the other hand, the aircraft used for the training (T-45 IIRC?) has a modern attack display with the HAFU indication so, unless I missed them, so it makes sense that concepts such as Cut, DOP, DTG lose part of their importance. The 2002 version instead, not to mention old syllabus for the F-4 from the '70s, it's all BDHI and mental maths (and I absolutely love it  ).

 

 

(shameless) EDIT: if anyone has an idea about how to get it touch with Ward or other former RIOs please give me a shout. I have a metric ton of questions I'd love to ask, but I don't know how to get in touch with them directly.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Karon

[The_Tau]

3 hours ago, Karon said:

The P-825/02 is quite hilarious in this (yes, bold and underline are exactly as they appear in the documentation lol):

 

Hmm I got P825 but I cant find those quotes...

[Karon]

11 minutes ago, The_Tau said:

Hmm I got P825 but I cant find those quotes...

Which one you have? P-825/17 I guess.

 

Anyway, we are going OT, sorry OP.

Edited May 12, 2021 by Karon

[Whiskey11]

On 5/11/2021 at 11:55 AM, near_blind said:

Found some more variants of the AAA-1. The Double Line doesn't appear to be present in the 1984 version (Tape 111E/P7E), but is present in the 1997 version (Tapes 115B/P15B). It seems a copy of the accompanying AAA-1A would be required to determine anything more meaningful.

 

Help me out here, does the 1997 version of the AAA-1 which shows the dual row TID have any information on the tapes at all? 

[near_blind]

 

Honestly not really. The issue is besides TARPS, NAVGRID and some stuff on BIT and OBC, the -1 doesn't cover RIO controls or systems, those are almost entirely contained within the -1A.