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Can one currently slave CCRP focus to steerpoint without targeting pod?


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I stay away form the F-16 to avoid disappointment as much as possible, but every now and then I give in and set my expectations pretty low. One of the missions on a favourite server involves demolition of the Assad building on the Syria map. SEAD flights have cleared a path to the target and I thought using the Viper with four MK-84s would be an exciting proposition. The loadout would not include a targeting pod.

 

With the new clouds possible obscuring the target, I wanted to use a CCRP delivery and programmed a steerpoint right on the target. While the navigation information provided by the steerpoint appeared to be good, I noticed that when switching to AG mode and selecting CCRP for the MK-84s that the CCRP square and targeting information was not focussed on the steerpoint. I looked around but with the lack of a default GM and associated snowplow and related buttons missing there was no way for me to reset the CCRP marker to the steerpoint. 

 

The only way I was able to relocate the CCRP marker was to slew it visually onto the building. Did I miss something obvious or is this basic feature not present in the F-16 yet? 

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CCRP will compute for wind, so it’s not unknown to have the steering line offset. 
 

as for TD being offset, try to rocker away and back to the SP

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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19 hours ago, Warmbrak said:

I stay away form the F-16 to avoid disappointment as much as possible, but every now and then I give in and set my expectations pretty low. One of the missions on a favourite server involves demolition of the Assad building on the Syria map. SEAD flights have cleared a path to the target and I thought using the Viper with four MK-84s would be an exciting proposition. The loadout would not include a targeting pod.

 

With the new clouds possible obscuring the target, I wanted to use a CCRP delivery and programmed a steerpoint right on the target. While the navigation information provided by the steerpoint appeared to be good, I noticed that when switching to AG mode and selecting CCRP for the MK-84s that the CCRP square and targeting information was not focussed on the steerpoint. I looked around but with the lack of a default GM and associated snowplow and related buttons missing there was no way for me to reset the CCRP marker to the steerpoint. 

 

The only way I was able to relocate the CCRP marker was to slew it visually onto the building. Did I miss something obvious or is this basic feature not present in the F-16 yet? 

The steerpoint is slaved to the TD box in CCRP. This means that if the TD box isn't looking at the position that you originally entered in for the steerpoint, you've slewed the steerpoint away manually. press CZ (on for example the HSD) and this problem will be solved.  If you've pressed CZ and the steerpoint is still off the target then the coordinates you've entered are incorrect. 
The last possibility is that the steerpoint is off target because of a bug. If so please report this issue with a track file including the true position of the target using the F10 map.

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3 hours ago, Florence201 said:

CCRP will compute for wind, so it’s not unknown to have the steering line offset. 
 

as for TD being offset, try to rocker away and back to the SP

 

This is not a steering line issue; the TD is off by 30 miles.

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Posted (edited)

Simple answer is don't CCRP with dumb bombs. No one would ever do that. We have precision guided munitions for a reason. Not to sound snarky or anything. But there's no reason to ever drop dumb bombs with CCRP on a building. If you know where it is and you have the coords, use JDAMS. I know it sucks the Viper can't use them yet and that's not a good answer. 

 

As to why your your TD is off, are you totally sure you entered the coords right? Did you rocker up and down back to the steerpoint? 

 

I don't know, if you input the correct coords then the thing should be on the thing. 

 

Also is your alignment good?


Edited by ZeroReady
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I will double check alignment, but the coordinate was good. The navigation marker was located perfectly on the building, so a CCRP drop would have been effective. The TD when switching to AG mode was off by almost 30 miles. With the actual steerpoint being where intended I don't see it as an alignment/coordinate issue.

 

I am tired of using precision weapons to be honest. In most squad missions I can pre-plan deliver JSOWs in the F-18 from more than 30 miles away and take out targets in multiple locations. I prefer an 80's mission setting where Hornets and Vipers still had to rely on CCIP and CCRP bombing modes, and CCRP bombing of hardened targets through cloud cover was the preferred method of bombing; the aircraft systems were designed for that. Obviously one could use the ground FCR to confirm target location and lock it up, but we don't have the luxury to do that in DCS yet.

 

I understand how your comment was intended, no worries and I appreciate it. But saying no one would ever do that is not entirely correct. 

 

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Yes, CCRP works without TGP and without FCR. HUD SOI and slew as needed to refine the TD box placement. Make sure you don't have any cursor deltas. If "CZ" is reverse video you have cursor deltas and your steerpoint is not at your destination. DCS F-16 last I tried had some weird issues with system altitude with non-standard pressures. Check your system alt (LIST-6 INS) against the info bar is you're trying to debug. Lastly the CCRP isn't that great I've seen convergence with the actual bomb trajectory. I've been getting ~200m short drops at high level release even though symbology is bang on target.

 

But in theory, nothing wrong with what you're asking.

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50 minutes ago, Warmbrak said:

I will double check alignment, but the coordinate was good. The navigation marker was located perfectly on the building, so a CCRP drop would have been effective. The TD when switching to AG mode was off by almost 30 miles. With the actual steerpoint being where intended I don't see it as an alignment/coordinate issue.

 

I am tired of using precision weapons to be honest. In most squad missions I can pre-plan deliver JSOWs in the F-18 from more than 30 miles away and take out targets in multiple locations. I prefer an 80's mission setting where Hornets and Vipers still had to rely on CCIP and CCRP bombing modes, and CCRP bombing of hardened targets through cloud cover was the preferred method of bombing; the aircraft systems were designed for that. Obviously one could use the ground FCR to confirm target location and lock it up, but we don't have the luxury to do that in DCS yet.

 

I understand how your comment was intended, no worries and I appreciate it. But saying no one would ever do that is not entirely correct. 

 

I totally understand getting bored with modern precision weapons. I personally enjoy CCIPing retarded bombs onto SAM sites, I'm a glutton for punishment. I was just trying to say that in a modern battlefield, it wouldn't be prudent to CCRP dumb bombs onto a building that you know the actual position of, it's not going anywhere, especially with possible civilian casualties around. I know we're limited in DCS in terms of what we can do.

 

As far as how effective a CCRP drop would be with a dumb bomb, I mean you really have a lot to factor in there. How exact are you on the PBIL? Are you pulling any G's when you pickle? What's the wind doing? Honestly yes the jet can make a CCRP drop with a dumb bomb on a building, but in my humble opinion, I only ever use CCRP with guided weapons.  I know this doesn't help with why you have such a huge offset and I don't have an answer yet for that problem, clearly something is wrong. I just like talking about jets and DCS, just trying to help.

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4 hours ago, ZeroReady said:

Simple answer is don't CCRP with dumb bombs. No one would ever do that. We have precision guided munitions for a reason.

This is categorically wrong. CCRP and DTOS were both added to the Viper before it was PGM capable, probably before the Paveway program even existed. They were absolutely designed to be used primarily with dumb bombs. The ability to pick an impact point with the FCR, or slew the TD Box onto a target on the HUD while in a dive and then have the computer calculate a release point was considered to be superior to purely visual CCIP bombing. If you're attacking a big solid object that doesn't move, why would you need to manually put the bombs on the target visually? Tell your computer where you want them to land, and let it do the math and the release for you. 

 

Here's an example of CCRP delivery of dumb bombs from one of the very first tactical HUD systems fitted to a fighter: 

 

 

@Warmbrak CZ (Cursor Zero) is the function you're looking for. There should be a CZ button on the HSD page, but I don't think it's been implemented yet in DCS and is only found on the TGP page. You might have luck making HUD SOI and hitting TMS Down. There are quite a few SPI functions that simply aren't implemented yet (including the entire DTOS delivery mode), so things can get a little weird. 

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6 hours ago, ZeroReady said:

Simple answer is don't CCRP with dumb bombs. No one would ever do that. We have precision guided munitions for a reason. Not to sound snarky or anything. But there's no reason to ever drop dumb bombs with CCRP on a building.

 

 

That's complete nonsense. CCRP was there before smart weapons were invented.

 

- How would they attack targets when there are air defense around a target and can't get below a certain altitude?

- How would they bomb a target when there is cloud cover at the target area?

- How would they loft bombs into a target area without CCRP? 

 

These are all circumstances in which CCIP is useless and you can make use of CCRP, specially if you'd have a working grond radar

F/A18C, F-16C, Mirage 2000C, JF-14, F-14B Tomcat, Flaming Cliffs 3, Black Shark 2, SU27, AJS37 Viggen, Persian Gulf, Syria

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