F14 Module Logitech/Saitech X56 Hotkey assign not registering. Seriously?

[M4ND4L0R3]

Hi Team,

So after about 6 hours of troubleshooting, I have finally determined that I am unable to assign my own custom hotkeys in your module.

I will link my previous post with video's and more detailed info below.

IF I use the hotkeys you already assigned by default, I can take them and re-apply them to different functions and they will work.

The point is, assigning custom hotkeys with modifiers is already programmed into the game. The method I have found ( and have been using for the FC3 and F18 modules ) works perfectly, but not with your module.

Again, im unsure why I seem to be the first person reporting this issue after the module has been out for 2 years, but maybe you guys can invest some time into figuring out why some of the basic functions of the game dont work with your module.

Even on sale, this is an $80 AUD module, and I am yet to even get the plane off the ground in the third training mission because I havent been able to assign some key functions ( like wing sweep ).

Please see link to my other post which contains video material of the issue.

 

Please fix this because this is just ridiculous.
 

 

[draconus]

DCS support devices, not some apps. Do you even need one?

People don't usually have time for 20+ minute low-res videos describing simple problem. So can you name one F-14 command and which HOTAS button you want to bind to it? Is it binding problem where DCS does not recognize the button push? Or is it problem with the bound button not working in game? You do realize that many commands work only in special conditions? Like you can't gear up on the ground or sweep wings without hydraulic pressure, etc.

[M4ND4L0R3]

Wow...

Like seriously dude, The whole point of making the video's, is replicating the issue so that everyone can see the exact situation the issue is occuring. Low res has something to do with your bandwidth buddy, Its at least 720P and its not like the APP or even the game needs to be in HD for you to see the issue I am presenting. What cave did you crawl out of?

1. " DCS support devices, not some apps. Do you even need one? "
Yeah, actually, if i want to use my > devices < multi-mode select, which then allows me to actually use most of the important keybindings required to operate the aircraft without taking my hands off my >device <. So if DCS supports devices, then where is the support?

 

2. "People don't usually have time for 20+ minute low-res videos describing simple problem."

Wow, Yeah man. And people dont usually have time for spending 6+ hours figuring out why the f****** game isnt accepting commands from a device that its supposed to support. Let alone a module thats been out for 2 years. This process I am using works 100% with FC3 and the F18 module.

3. " So can you name one F-14 command and which HOTAS button you want to bind to it?"

Yeah man, ALT-M -> Master Caution Reset, which is a default hotkey provided by the game, works fine assigned to any button on the HOTAS. for example SW1.

4. " Is it binding problem where DCS does not recognize the button push? Or is it problem with the bound button not working in game? "

Both. Any additional hotkeys added to the profile are not recognised by DCS. AS YOU CAN SEE FROM MY VIDEO, Other default hotkeys that are assigned, such as ALT-M and G, are working fine, yet when I add custom hotkeys with multipliers ( such as right shift+X ), it does not accept the command.

5. " You do realize that many commands work only in special conditions? Like you can't gear up on the ground or sweep wings without hydraulic pressure, etc. "
Yes, Sherlock, and if you actually read my post you would see I specified the 3rd training mission in the game, wherein the aircraft is already completely turned on and ready to operate. Thus, Therein, Therefore, wingsweep should actually work.

 

4554 posts and you didnt read, watch in its entirety, nor add anything intelligent to this discussion.

*slow clap* Well done.

P.S On my " Low-res 20min video " ( its 14 minutes... )", I also added timestamps in my original post if you wanted to skip through what I was talking about. 
 

[Q3ark]

I was going to try and help, but you’re just acting all entitled and arrogant, figure it out yourself. 

[M4ND4L0R3]

2 minutes ago, Q3ark said:

I was going to try and help, but you’re just acting all entitled and arrogant, figure it out yourself. 

Its not entitlement,  its a response to paying $80 for a module and then being unable to play it using the exact same method and setup as I use to play FC3 and F18.

I am unsure how I shouldnt be at least slightly annoyed by this, let alone the amount of time I spent trying to fix it myself before I even came to the forums to be " entitled ".

As for the arrogance, im sorry, but everything asked by draconus was literrally covered in my other post/video's replicating the issue. I am also unsure how polite I am supposed to be to someone who wasnt being polite in their first instance?

 

I still think I have been overally polite, considering.

I am very happy to be wrong, I am even very happy to find out its something small and stupid on my end that im doing wrong ( although I dont see why, as mentioned other modules work fine.. ),

I just want to be able to play the module that I paid for.

Is that unfair?

[draconus]

45 minutes ago, M4ND4L0R3 said:

Low res has something to do with your bandwidth buddy, Its at least 720P and its not like the APP or even the game needs to be in HD for you to see the issue I am presenting. What cave did you crawl out of?

You uploaded two videos: 14+8mins - that's why I was talking about 20+mins. They both are default 480 (I couldn't read the text then) - if I wanted to change to higher res it popup some window with chinese text that I can't read, sorry. Tested on 700Mbps/1ms ping connection - is it good enough for you? My cave is known as Poland.

btw: F-14 is currently on sale $68, so not 80.

 

Back to topic.

Quote

when I add custom hotkeys with multipliers ( such as right shift+X ), it does not accept the command

That is adding keyboard binding. Of course it won't be recognized when you selected X56. If you want to add key binding, please select the command on the keyboard column. If I misunderstood, please describe your process in a few words.

So I'd like to ask again what command are you trying to assign to your HOTAS, not keyboard, so I could test if it works with my hardware. That's how we test.

Obviously I will not be able to test "modes" on my HOTAS. Maybe you can find some answers and recommendations here:

https://www.reddit.com/r/hoggit/comments/au4crb/how_do_i_use_the_x56_mode_switch/

 

Quote

Thus, Therein, Therefore, wingsweep should actually work.

It's not that simple. It might need hitting the Master Reset button before you can move wings forward. Or the flaps retracted to move wings aft.

[M4ND4L0R3]

Draconus... man...

 

"That is adding keyboard binding. Of course it won't be recognized when you selected X56. If you want to add key binding, please select the command on the keyboard column. If I misunderstood, please describe your process in a few words.

So I'd like to ask again what command are you trying to assign to your HOTAS, not keyboard, so I could test if it works with my hardware. That's how we test.

Obviously I will not be able to test "modes" on my HOTAS. "

 

I shall give you the benefit of the doubt, and provide you with a detailed explanation.

Please see the following screen shot of my F18 map for DCS, as an example.

 

 

As you can see, there are no bindings in the controller columns. There are only bindings in the keyboard column.

 

Please see below screenshot of Logitech HOTAS app.

 

 

 

Now what the logitech app does, is alow you to attach the inputed macro for each toggle/switch/rotary/button, and then by turning the very bottom left " mode selector switch ", you can then engage which column of functions you want the switches to be active.


So, Yes, you are right. If I inputed keyboard commands into the controller columns.... it wouldnt register... but thats not what I have done.

 

 

BACK TO THE ISSUE:

In simple terms, the F14 module simply does not register the inputs from the controller if they include modifiers. Infact, I even tested the theory that if I took the default hotkey's provided by the game, and re-assigned them to different functions then maybe it would work... This is also incorrect.

Tonight I attempted to move some of the shift/ctrl/alt orientated modifiers ( default hotkeys from other functions ), and strangly enough, once I had re-assigned the exact some hotkey to another function, they stopped working. The game only registers letters/numbers/characters, it doesnt register attached modifiers.

 

 

And, once again, This method of using the logitech app to macro keyboard commands in DCS works without issue in the FC3 and F18 modules. So far its only the F14 module thats not working. I also bought the A10 ll module during the steam sale, but I havent had time to test it on that module yet.

 

IN CLOSING:

 

So its very clear that there is an issue here, and its proven to be a very time consuming one to test/reproduce. I can guarantee that the issue is somewhere between the Logitech app and the F14 module, since I have been left with no other option but to use the in-game control mapper to resolve my flight issues. For example, if I was using the Logitech application, I would be able to set ONE of my throttle hats to be an " 8-way " instead of a " 4-way ", meaning I could assign all of the Jester command wheel clicks on a single hat! Yet now I am stuck using BOTH of my throttle hats for 4 functions a piece as DCS wont recognise any more than 4 inputs.


I can guess, within your 4500 odd posts and time on the forum, you have seen your share of players who havent exactly thought everything through before they rush to the forums and demand answers, but this is where " judging a book by its cover " becomes relative.

You should allow some benefit of the doubt before you start insinuating people are wasting time on " simple issues "

 

 

Also, game on sale 24/4/2021 was 429 CNY which converts to 85.4 AUD. Now that the steam sale has finished, the current price of the module is 511 CNY, which converts to 101.7 AUD.


Maybe we can start over, be friends, and act like mature adults and try and help each other?

I am willing.

 

 

[draconus]

Ok, that's great description now. So you don't actually set anything for device in DCS - you just assign everything to keyboard and then use the Logitech software to make DCS believe you press the keys while you use switches on your HOTAS in different modes, right?

 

What about the method this guy used:

https://youtu.be/iWrWCsRlFcs

where mode switch makes for just modifier in the app and then actual X56 buttons are selected in DCS under the device column.

Even when DCS does not recognize the input you can still select it from the list with any modifier you want.

 

Btw: 85AUD is still $66 (USD)

Edited April 29, 2021 by draconus

[M4ND4L0R3]

2 hours ago, draconus said:

 

What about the method this guy used:

https://youtu.be/iWrWCsRlFcs

where mode switch makes for just modifier in the app and then actual X56 buttons are selected in DCS under the device column.

 

 

 

This is what I am using now, but literrally only from no other option.

This method works, to a degree. Sometimes the game doesnt register the " modifier " correctly, which is why I was investigating and figured out how to use the app instead. The app also provides more customisation options, I;E, I can turn my hats from 4 way into 8 way, or register them as a mouse etc. DCS only recognises the 4 way hat.

Anyway. My main point is:

Why does this process work fine for FC3 and F18 but not with F14.

[draconus]

7 hours ago, M4ND4L0R3 said:

Why does this process work fine for FC3 and F18 but not with F14.

Idk, it should work the same. The module designer prepares the mappable commands and what kind of device can be assigned to them. So if keyboard is allowed then it cannot limit you on keys or modifiers you use (apart from few special/reserved), no matter the module. What modifier is not recognized correctly and why would it be sometimes? I tried last night to map some keys to Master Caution button and all combinations I tried were properly recognized. Please be specific with example of the keys or combinations (and what commands) that are not recognized in the DCS controls menu for the F-14 module. And if they are not recognized - can they be chosen from the list? With that someone from HB could have a look.

One thing come to mind that the keyboard shorcuts for the Logitech app work only for the active window - was this possibly the case when testing?

[M4ND4L0R3]

13 minutes ago, draconus said:

dk, it should work the same. The module designer prepares the mappable commands and what kind of device can be assigned to them. So if keyboard is allowed then it cannot limit you on keys or modifiers you use (apart from few special/reserved), no matter the module.

 

Any assignment I put in the keyboard segment is recognised when using the keyboard to activate the shortcut, there is no issue there.

 

14 minutes ago, draconus said:

What modifier is not recognized correctly and why would it be sometimes?

 

Im unsure why it is sometimes, but in my video's you can see that any of the modifiers with L/R shift, L/R ctrl, or L/R Windows are not working. L/R Alt works if it is a DEFAULT hotkey programmed into the game. The second I try to take those hotkeys that are " working " and move them to another function, they stop working. Its literrally bizzare. In my 3rd video you can see that I am just trying to use the display screen activation hotkey, such as L/shift+1, and even though I didnt move that hotkey, I just used it as the default hotkey and assigned it to the map on the logitech app, when I trigger the macro on the button it only triggers " 1 ", which is something else.

 

 

17 minutes ago, draconus said:

One thing come to mind that the keyboard shorcuts for the Logitech app work only for the active window - was this possibly the case when testing?

The shortcuts from the logitech app ONLY work while the app itself is in TEST mode. This is also ONLY for DCS. Other games I have that I use the macro function in the app do not need the app to be in the applications testing mode.

[draconus]

It doesn't sound good to keep it in the test mode, just a guess. Try different method:

 

Also try to ask about the problem (or link this thread) there:

https://forums.eagle.ru/forum/335-saitek/

[M4ND4L0R3]

3 hours ago, draconus said:

It doesn't sound good to keep it in the test mode, just a guess. Try different method

 

Test mode is the only way that the macro'd settings will activate in the game. Unfortunately.

Yes, I am aware of how to set the buttons 34-36 as modifiers, however the issue is that the game sometimes has issues reading what mode its in. Randomly it might not turn off, randomly it might not turn on. The amount of times I have accidently turned off an engine in the F15 is ridiculous.

[M4ND4L0R3]

Sorry,

I know Draconus has attempted to help and even with video's I have still out lined the issue here on the forums,

Is there really no kind of offical response from Heatblur on this...?

[M4ND4L0R3]

Hi guys,

I have a new video showing that the method of " adding modifiers " doesnt work, or works inconsistantly. Even in this video, pressing backspace which is supposed to remove the stick from the field of view doesnt work until the aircraft is at least in the air. Flaps are also still down after I take off ( after 20:00 mark ) regardless of how many times I try to adjust it using the controller OR the keyboard.

 

Video link:

https://www.bilibili.com/video/BV1n64y1U72G

- To skip the introduction/rant, please start watching from 15:00 to 20:00.

- You can see clearly I set the modifiers for button 36 ( M3/S1 ) and Button 34 ( M1 ) in my DCS control profile.  

- I then proceed to check the bindings in the DCS adjust control menu before returning to the game to find that yet again, this method produces inconsistant results.

Please explain to me how am I supposed to play your module... with ONE profile? You run out of buttons pretty quick, especially as the pilot, I can only hazard a guess at how many options the RIO has to use consistancy as I havent even had a chance to TRY being the RIO yet as I cant get the pilot mode to work consistantly. So I just fly with one profile and use the keyboard for everything else? Like cmon guys.

Again. My original method of only setting keybindings and using the logitech app to macro assign the keyboard shortcuts works 100% in FC3 and F18.

Right now I just want a refund, this is absoutely pathetic. I can understand if I was just raving incoherrently on the forums with no evidence or knowledge, but I have provided MORE than enough evidence and time to you guys that SOMETHING is wrong with your module, yet almost a week later not even ONE response from someone at Heatblur.


Please, FFS, 

 

- Investigate why the keyboard macroing process wouldnt work with your module when it works with others

- Investigate why the game stops recieving the IN GAME BOUND MODIFIERS inconsistantly.


Unbelievable.
 

[draconus]

1 hour ago, M4ND4L0R3 said:

how am I supposed to play your module... with ONE profile? You run out of buttons pretty quick

FYI any key or button can be assigned as a modifier.

 

I know at least one reported binding (AP enagage/disengage switch) that does not work consistently. So there are some bugs like this in the module. The mouse click always works though.

[M4ND4L0R3]

21 minutes ago, draconus said:

FYI any key or button can be assigned as a modifier.

 

 

Draconus, Im sorry man, but yes I know.

For example, there are 7 toggles right?



I used to have the red one circled set up as modifiers, Red was L/Shift and R/Shift, and yellow was also L/Shift and R/shift.

THIS works, but then im losing functionality, and you ALSO have to constantly hold these in position while you hit the other switch that you want to modify. And unless you have three hands this still doesnt really help to have more than one " profile ".

 

 

I also used to run this as a modifier, depress it once to activate the modifier, depress it again to turn it off, right?

This also has the same issue as the mode switches on the throttle. Sometimes it works, othertimes it stops responding.

Again, ive been tackling this issue for a long time before I came to the forums for help.

And the OVERALL point is still the same.

- Why does this work with F18/FC3, but not with F14. If its really the same game, then this shouldnt be happening.


 

29 minutes ago, draconus said:

I know at least one reported binding (AP enagage/disengage switch) that does not work consistently. So there are some bugs like this in the module. The mouse click always works though.

 

 

Yes man your right, I have seen this issue written about before.

[Sacarino111]

Hi M4ND4LOR.

I don t have the X56, just the X52PRO, but the logitech Profiler looks the same, so I think I m able to get the point. Could you send pictures of the actual F14 Profile, and the DCS assignement screen, as you did with th f18 one, so maybe I could find an issue in your flow, as my F14 module is not having any issue with the Profiler? I don't have many keys assigned, but the ones I have are SHIFT and ALT plus + and - , witch are odd sometimes for games to recognize them and I have no issue.

Saludos.

Saca111

[IronMike]

Hey bud,

sorry it took a while to reply, watching long videos and reading long threads just needs us to find some time on the side. I watched the first 19 minutes of the last video you posted and I read up on the stuff above. I really feel for you having to go through all of this frustration, but the problem is that Logitech/Saitek doops you into thinking you have the amount of your inputs times 3, which you don't. Some of this may be a hard pill to swallow, because it will ask you ultimately to overthink your approach to inputs, and I know that it sucks, when we have found a certain way of doing things, however, software goes along with things made available to it, and just doesn't with others, which are not, which just do not exist, like say your button 12 changing to physically being button 42 when flipping the mode switch - I will explain in a second.

First of all to get one biggy out of the way: DCS modifiers need to be pressed while using them. This is why mode switches do not work in game. They are being registered as a press when you move them, set them, but the stick does not communicate this "press" continuously. This means it works when pressing both buttons together, or in the menu for a short while and after spawning in game, but once you switch it again, or atfer a while, or for any other reason why the stick stops communicating the button press, it will not work anymore. (The mode switches were 33, 34, etc was it? - the names S1 and M1 and S3 that you added are a bit misleading here, because what DCS register is simply "button 33 + button 12" for example, means both have to be pressed the same time, or button 33 held, while 12 is pressed. Since 33 is a toggle switch and not a flip switch, holding it will not work anyway.) This is an issue with Logitech/Saitek (for x55 owners like myself it is the same), and not a DCS issue. I hate to say it, but unless Logitech finds a way to actually giving you 3x the amount of switches you have, and not having to provide a software with it that helps the stick itself understand it - which DCS can neither read nor support really - mode switches in many games will simply remain not supported. DCS is not the only game/sim, where the saitek/logitech mode switch doesn't work. And if you look at high end gear, like Warthog and above, they do not provide such mode switches in the first place. Which brings me to the next point, the intended and simulated use of HOTAS. 

Aficionado HOTAS developers seek the same approach as we do in simulating the aircraft: you are not supposed to map everything to your stick. This is why we develop fully clickable modules, so you can use your mouse for less used inputs, like for example the parking brake. Or the master reset button. The intended idea is to a) provide inputs that are native to the aircraft's actual HOTAS layout (which in the F14 is minute compared to modern jets) and b) make all other clickable inputs mappable for cockpit builders, who add actual physical switches to map them to. At no time the intention is or was to make it possible to map all key bindings to a single HOTAS. Which is why high end aficionado stick developers provide sticks that account for that, but nothing more. And which is why DCS and other games offer you the ability to add modifiers, to use a switch times the amount of modifiers you want to add. If you are using stick inputs for modifiers, you of course take away from the amount of base inputs you have available, because modifiers and inputs cannot be used as such simultaneously - for obvious reasons.

Another issue is the software that comes with the joysticks themselves. Here as well, long term DCS users will tell you right away: do not use it. I can tell you: it isn't supported. There is no way we can account for all different programs, its quirks and whatnot comes with them, in any kind of way. If hardware developers provide such software, it is on them to make it work with the simulation software. We cannot know what it is doing, we have no way of reading it, or any way of working or accessing it. That is just like that, and that will not change. This even counts for the Thrustmaster software, with Thrustmaster being an ED partner. This is likely similar with most other games as well. And to that extend, over the years, stick programming software has become less and less important and is being emphasized less and less by (especially aficionado) hardware devs, because games deal with the actual functions the peripherals provide well enough themselves - if you do not try to overuse it or have expactations that simply cannot be matched. The same is the case with racing sims and wheels. Gone are the times where you set the wheel rotation to 360° in the logitech software. Nowadays you leave it at default and limit the rotation in game. Which brings me back to the x55/56 series trying to suggest to you that you have 3 times the amount of physical, actual inputs, when you have not.

On top of that there are a couple more issues I found from watching the video:

- I think your Logitech software might be interfering with your backspace key. Another reason why to leave everything in default, unless you are willing to make it work and go through all the heeps, which will still result in a "maybe" - at least from personal experience. I just avoid it altogether. Else I'd need to see if you had added a modifier, which, if anything than mode 1 (which is the actual default), will not work, unless again you press the modifier at the same time. My backspace hasnt been touched or used with a modifier and works 100% of the time. You can see the same happening with your F1 etc keys. Somehow when switching the mode switch DCS registers that for a while and then F1 will not be F1 anymore but "button 33 + F1", and thus F1, which you think you are pressing, in fact is not being pressed at this moment. The reason why I suggest it might be else your logitech software, is that I keep seeing your radio menu come up. I get it, it is a rant, and you are hitting hard on your keyboard (honestly who of us hasnt been there), so you might also be hitting a second key at the same time, in which case disregard. Either way though: best not to use the logitech software at all in my personal opinion and leave everything at default, including axis. Only use the control menus and settings in game. This counts for all other sticks as well. We can and only ever will support that, and nothing more. Thank you for your kind understanding.

- Some things will not work in the Tomcat without including other steps, or meeting several conditions. Your flaps cannot be tested in any state of the wings but fully swept forward 20°. They will neither extend, nor move, nor anything else. Maneuver Flaps will disengage when passing 55° swept back or bomb mode and also cannot be used when wings are swept back beyond that. It is important in the tutorials to thus follow instructions step by step with attention to detail, that is just on the side.

- The wings will not move forward in AUTO unless you hit the master reset button after sweeping them out of oversweep.

- The default mode - unless Logitech changed it - but since forever with the X52/pro and X55/56 and X65 series has always been Mode 1. Not mode 2. But it should not matter within the game, because unless mapped as a modifier or else, your keys will always register as default keys in DCS, no matter what mode you are in. This is what I mean with Logitech/saitek (the design comes from saitek, not logitech) tricking you into thinking you have 3 times the amount of switches you actually do have.


In general I would say: your inputs work as intended, and do not work simply when/because they are being used with a few misunderstandings as explained above. Software and hardware both have their limitations, and in order to get the most out of it, it is best to work within these limits and not try to "hack" them, although in your case, again, the "hack" is falsely encouraged/ advertised by the Device Manufacturer themselves, both by providing a fake mode switch (which physically only registers as a single button press) and providing a software whose limits itself rest with the manufacturer and not DCS. You will likely ask now: but why does the software work with the F18 and FC3 then? Honestly: no idea. Both modules are already setup to a more modern style of HOTAS, which has CMS, DMS, TMS and whatnot, MFD menus and the likes all lending itself to a more clear layout and thus easier to be used with external software, because they require less modifiers and macros themselves. This is what I would guess at least. The Tomcat has only a few things on both stick and throttle, and the rest was meant to be pushed with your fingers in the cockpit. So now you are setting up modifiers, and while I am sure one could potentially get it to work, we'd have to go through every keybind and input you want to achieve one by one, step by step. Please forgive me, if I am just not able to provide that for you. This is also one of the reasons why we do not and never will support external software for inputs. We could not keep up with giving you the kind of service you'd need to make it work. At the same time, if you use your modifier method with S1, M1, and S3 like you do in the video (which factually are just buttons 32 through 34), I am sure it will not work either, because the limitation here is modifiers and DCS, and not modifiers and the F14. Or to put it more correctly: the limitation is the Mode switch with the X56 not being a mode switch but a single button press, which is a toggle switch and not a flip switch (that can be held for continuous input).


Here is my suggestion to use a different approach:

Try to map realistically first and then see what is left. Use 1 of your stick inputs as modifier - this will already potentially double the amount of inputs you can map. What do I mean by that: do not map things, that are not on the real stick at first. This will already leave you in the Tomcat with additional inputs to bind, as on the stick it is literally DLC, MFs, Trigger, Nosewheel/AP reference, weapon selector, trim, store release and AP emerg disconnect paddle. Then, for example you have your left 4way hat switch to have weapon select up and down, use hat switch right for weapon selector press (to switch between SP and PH) and hat switch left you now have free to use as a modifier and remap all other keys. Mind you: you need to hold down the modifier, while using it.

Secondly try to use your mouse more proactively. This is the beauty of fully clickable modules: you do not need to map everything anymore, as you did in FC3, which is why FC3 has so few things working in comparison. The parking brake, the radios, the master arm, the acm cover, the hud modes, the steering modes, the anti skid, the master reset button, the fuel dump, the refuel probe, the gun rate, missile prep and sidewinder cool buttons, oxygen switch, lights, tacan and and and  - are all switches that I do not have mapped to anything. The reason why we provide bindeable inputs for these in the first place are so that ppl can prioritize to their own liking and so that home cockpit builders can create switches to map them to. But at no point do we provide them with the intention of all of them being mapped to just one single HOTAS.

In general I ask myself: what do I need most, and what do I click occasionally. This is how I decide what to map to my stick, and what to leave for mouseclicking. I btw fly with a VKB F14 stick. I fly all my sims with it. And I never feel I have too little buttons to map, because I use mouseclick for things not needed on the stick. With the abundance of hatswitches and inputs and thus also modifiers available on the throttle, I make the F14 stick work with every simulated aircraft that you can find. From a 747, to an f18, to the f14 naturally to any warbird in IL2 or elsewhere. The key is to not try to map everything and map according to your needs. And then you create your workflow around it. What do I press on the stick and what do I flip in the cockpit and when do I do it? For example: if you enter a dogfight, you want to turn off your SAS roll switch. Fine, seems like a great option to have on the stick, right? Wrong, I say: develop the proper workflow: just look down once before the merge, flick it, and leave it until after the fight, and voila: you have saved already one "very attractive" input to have. Develop the wrong workflow, forget about it, try to fiddle with it when pulling 6Gs and so on and so forth, and yes of course, you will think: I should have mapped it to my stick. (This is just an example and I am fully aware that this is the very reason why in the real tomcat the AP emergency disconnect would also flip your SAS switches for you and actually is mapped on the stick. But a sim is a much more controlled environment than RL, where getting jumped by a bandit and flipping or not flipping these switches is a matter of life and death, and you dont try to map commodities such as view zoom or else.)


I know this wall of text is not actually the kind of fix you were looking for, and some of it may very well disappoint you, for example like us not supporting logitech software, etc, or in general suggesting to map less stuff than your heart desires. I've stood at the same junction before, so I know how it feels at first. "But why ffs cant I have em all?!" As someone who has been at this for well over 20 years myself, I do recommend you give my suggestion above a try though. I promise you: long term you will have less headaches, and less hassle mapping and operating your modules. But also: it will force you to think of workflows, clever workflows, which will make you a more structured and thus better pilot. Sounds weird maybe, but I promise you that it will. Since you are a fellow Mandalorian: this is the way.

I hope this makes sense to you and helps you mapping your inputs. And if, for some reason, this is not at all what you expected and you feel that you do not want to fly the F14 in such manner and with these limitations in inputs, then please do send me a PM and we will refund you your F-14 and invalidate your key. In any case though, thank you for your purchase, and please accept my apologies for going through so much frustration. I've been there myself, and I know just how frustrating it can be. Above all, however, I hope you find a layout for your inputs soon that will let you enjoy the game. If you want suggestions to what layout specifically I use when I use the x55 for testing, please let me know.



EDIT: Just to add - us personally can only provide refunds for purchases on our store, else ED support or STEAM support need to be contacted, we unfortunately have no influence on that. For steam I know that they simply apply their usual refund policy for software, with a max use of 2 hrs.

 

Edited May 2, 2021 by IronMike
typos

[M4ND4L0R3]

Hi Mike,

 

First of all,

Thank you for finally taking the time ( really, honestly thank you ) to reply, and a wall of text with explanations is far more preferable than getting it in tidbits.

 

37 minutes ago, IronMike said:

Some of this may be a hard pill to swallow, because it will ask you ultimately to overthink your approach to inputs, and I know that it sucks, when we have found a certain way of doing things, however, software goes along with things made available to it, and just doesn't with others, which are not, which just do not exist, like say your button 12 changing to physically being button 42 when flipping the mode switch - I will explain in a second.

 

The truth is the truth and if it means I need to adapt again, and that adaptation allows me to play the game, then so be it. I am sure you may have guessed, but I am not afraid of adapting and as I have said several times I am happy to be wrong, I just want to be able to play the game.

 

 

 

29 minutes ago, IronMike said:

- Some things will not work in the Tomcat without including other steps, or meeting several conditions. Your flaps cannot be tested in any state of the wings but fully swept forward 20°. They will neither extend, nor move, nor anything else. Maneuver Flaps will disengage when passing 55° swept back or bomb mode and also cannot be used when wings are swept back beyond that.

- The wings will not move forward in AUTO unless you hit the master reset button after sweeping them out of oversweep.

 

Thank you for explaining this. I did mention I wasnt sure about how it should function, and I can readily admit my frustration with the situation surely caused a lot of oversight in the mechanical side of why it might not be working.

 

 

30 minutes ago, IronMike said:

DCS modifiers need to be pressed while using them. This is why mode switches do not work in game. They are being registered as a press when you move them, set them, but the stick does not communicate this "press" continuously. This means it works when pressing both buttons together, or in the menu for a short while and after spawning in game, but once you switch it again, or atfer a while, or for any other reason why the stick stops communicating the button press, it will not work anymore. (The mode switches were 33, 34, etc was it? - the names S1 and M1 and S3 that you added are a bit misleading here, because what DCS register is simply "button 33 + button 12" for example, means both have to be pressed the same time, or button 33 held, while 12 is pressed. Since 33 is a toggle switch and not a flip switch, holding it will not work anyway.)

 

This explains why when even in the control menu I couldnt see the control presses, and has been a long time suspicion of mine back from when I was attempting to do this for FC3 and F18. I knew 100% that if I set a map where I was pushing two switches simultaniously, i was getting the desired result, yet felt I was losing functionality with this process. Again, not DCS's problem and I can understand.

 

 

33 minutes ago, IronMike said:

I think your Logitech software might be interfering with your backspace key. Another reason why to leave everything in default, unless you are willing to make it work and go through all the heeps, which will still result in a "maybe" - at least from personal experience. I just avoid it altogether. Else I'd need to see if you had added a modifier, which, if anything than mode 1 (which is the actual default), will not work, unless again you press the modifier at the same time. My backspace hasnt been touched or used with a modifier and works 100% of the time. You can see the same happening with your F1 etc keys. Somehow when switching the mode switch DCS registers that for a while and then F1 will not be F1 anymore but "button 33 + F1", and thus F1, which you think you are pressing, in fact is not being pressed at this moment. The reason why I suggest it might be else your logitech software, is that I keep seeing your radio menu come up. I get it, it is a rant, and you are hitting hard on your keyboard (honestly who of us hasnt been there), so you might also be hitting a second key at the same time, in which case disregard. Either way though: best not to use the logitech software at all in my personal opinion.

 

I was hitting the backslash key by accident during my rant, yes, and I had already set the throttle to M2 which was supposed to be the default settings. I did also try a few other times during the video while the mode select was in M2 and it still didnt work. Generally before I go hot under the collar on a video I have already tried before hand several times so that im not making a complete idiot of myself ( just a slight idiot ) in a public forum. The logitech software is still active, but there is no map loaded in it as the software was not assisting at all. only the default profile loaded with the software on startup was loaded ( blank slate ). So im unsure why it wasnt working either, yet it turned off once I was off the ground.
 

 

40 minutes ago, IronMike said:

In general I would say: your inputs work as intended, and do not work simply when/because they are being used with a few misunderstandings as explained above. Software and hardware both have their limitations, and in order to get the most out of it, it is best to work within these limits and not try to "hack" them, although in your case, again, the "hack" is falsely encouraged/ advertised by the Device Manufacturer themselves, both by providing a fake mode switch (which physically only registers as a single button press) and providing a software whose limits itself rest with the manufacturer and not DCS. 

 

IMHO, The logitech software does work. It is simply macroing the input to whatever command you input into it. The mode switch then changes what macro is being outputted at that control point to a new assignment. The software also enables additional functions for each of the inputs, such as increasing the hat range from 4 to 8, or enabling the radials to " simulate " a button push at certain % of rotation. This is how I developed the process of simply adding keyboard commands and removing all of the bindings from the game outside of axis commands. So does the software " give more buttons than you have ", no, but it allows you to change the function when you flick the same switch. I am happy to make another video flying the F18 module to show this.

 

49 minutes ago, IronMike said:

You will likely ask now: but why does the software work with the F18 and FC3 then? Honestly: no idea. Both modules are already setup to a more modern style of HOTAS, which has CMS, DMS, TMS and whatnot, MFD menus and the likes all lending itself to a more clear layout and thus easier to be used with external software, because they require less modifiers and macros themselves. This is what I would guess at least.

 

With all due respect, this is a fair response, but also still should prompt an investigation of some kind, rather than lean heavily on assumed inaccuracies of the hardware/software being used by the customer. Especially when I have shown evidence that it does work. Just my honest opinion.

 

 

 

52 minutes ago, IronMike said:

The Tomcat has only a few things on both stick and throttle, and the rest was meant to be pushed with your fingers in the cockpit. So now you are setting up modifiers, and while I am sure one could potentially get it to work, we'd have to go through every keybind and input you want to achieve one by one, step by step. Please forgive me, if I am just not able to provide that for you. This is also one of the reasons why we do not and never will support external software for inputs. We could not keep up with giving you the kind of service you'd need to make it work. At the same time, if you use your modifier method with S1, M1, and S3 like you do in the video, I am sure it will not work either, because the limitation here is modifiers and DCS, and not modifiers and the F14. Or to put it more correctly: the limitation is the Mode switch with the X56 not being a mode switch but a single button press, which is a toggle switch and not a flip switch (that can be held for continuous input).

 

Fair enough.

 

 

53 minutes ago, IronMike said:

Try to map realistically first and then see what is left. Use 1 of your stick inputs as modifier - this will already potentially double the amount of inputs you can map. What do I mean by that: do not map things, that are not on the real stick at first. This will already leave you in the Tomcat with additional inputs to bind, as on the stick it is literally DLC, MFs, Trigger, Nosewheel/AP reference, weapon selector, trim, store release and AP emerg disconnect paddle. Then, for example you have your left 4way hat switch to have weapon select up and down, use hat switch right for weapon selector press (to switch between SP and PH) and hat switch left you now have free to use as a modifier and remap all other keys. Mind you: you need to hold down the modifier, while using it.

 

 

I will definitely try this, thank you.

 

 

 

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

Secondly try to use your mouse more proactively. This is the beauty of fully clickable modules: you do not need to map everything anymore,

 

Let me be clear.

DCS high fidelity modules are amazing, well built, and definitely well appreciated ( although it would be nice to be able to read a little bit clearer what all the instrumentation is labled in the cockpit, a popular complaint I am sure yet surely valid, generally only when learning the aircraft, and yes, as an aircraft " pilot " i should know what each switch does ). 

 

But I can with all honesty say I am an " Auto-starter ", as much as that probably brings me a fair amount of shame in the sim community. Its a matter of time for me, I dont have a lot of it, I am quite busy here in China and when I have time to fly in custom solo campaigns or online with friends, running through the pre-flight checklists is the last thing I am worried about, but I still appreciate all the effort that has gone into these modules. As I have mentioned in one of my video's, in the F18 module I use the mouse quite a lot, because a lot of the aircrafts inflight operations are with the DDI/UFC, so its actually great to get on the mouse and do what I need to do and its actually very efficent.

 

However.

 

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

The reason why we provide bindeable inputs for these in the first place are so that ppl can prioritize to their own liking and so that home cockpit builders can create switches to map them to.

 

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

But at no point do we provide them with the intention of all of them being mapped to just one single HOTAS.

 

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

and you dont try to map commodities such as view zoom or else

 

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

"But why ffs cant I have em all?!"

 

 

For me, its not about " mapping them all ", its about efficency. Im not a pilot, but I would assume that the Pilot would NOT want to take his right hand off the stick whenever possible ( unless in auto-pilot obviously ), and would probably use his left hand to flick most of the things in the cockpit where possible. Unfortunately I am not very good left handed with the mouse, therein most of my binds ( yes I had the master reset set, but thats because in the F18 it goes off all the time if you forget something and its easier to flick it off and fix the issue ) are set up so that lever's/switches/buttons can be accessed with my left hand on the HOTAS.

My F18 sim set up on the logitech app includes one of the hats and some of the buttons converted to a mouse function, because its easier to use my custom snap views set up on the DDI's and then quickly change what page I am looking at or a side bar setting using this method than it is to:

 

- Take my hand off the stick

- Adjust my view so that I can actually focus and read what im doing

- Move my hand to the mouse and then make my changes to the DDI as required

 

 

Yes mapping views might be a commodity, but when you dont have a VR headset, it definitely helps to have a good field of view, like you would as a real human being and a pilot, and still be able to quickly adjust your focus view without taking your hand off the stick and wandering through the numpad and / * keys to adjust the zoom everytime you want to take advantage of

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

the beauty of fully clickable modules

 

 

1 hour ago, IronMike said:

I know this wall of text is not actually the kind of fix you were looking for, and some of it may very well disappoint you, for example like us not supporting logitech software, etc, or in general suggesting to map less stuff than your heart desires. I've stood at the same junction before, so I know how it feels at first. "But why ffs cant I have em all?!" As someone who has been at this for well over 20 years myself, I do recommend you give my suggestion above a try though. I promise you: long term you will have less headaches, and less hassle mapping and operating your modules. But also: it will force you to think of workflows, clever workflows, which will make you a more structured and thus better pilot. Sounds weird maybe, but I promise you that it will.

I hope this makes sense to you and helps you mapping your inputs. And if, for some reason, this is not at all what you expected and you feel that you do not want to fly the F14 in such manner and with these limitations in inputs, then please do send me a PM and we will refund you your F-14 and invalidate your key. In any case though, thank you for your purchase, and please accept my apologies for going through  so much frustration. I've been there myself, and I know just how furstrating it can be. Above all, however, I hope you find a layout for your inputs soon that will let you enjoy the game. If you want suggestions to what layout specifically I use when I use the x55 for testing, please let me know.

 

 

Again, thank you actually for the wall of text, it shows that you took time out of your day to give me a structured response and as another busy person to another, I appreciate it.

I will use your advice and try again to create a map that I can use on the simulator. Still, it would have been nice to continue to use the keyboard macro system provided by saitech to play the module, but as I said before I am not above adapting and actually really just want to play the f****** game.


If for some strange reason this still doesnt work I will contact you via PM,


Kind regards,

Josh.

[IronMike]

Fair enough! If single macros are not working with the software, it could very well be that they are not meeting prerequesites as well, like master button press, wing sweep to auto, or flaps while wings swept etc.

Generally what you want to achieve with it should work, yes. I used the same approach way back when with FC2, but inputs were fewer and simpler and the setup was thus easier. What I can offer you: if a single macro isnt working, please make me a step by step video of max 2 min if you can, and I will take a look at it. I am sure we'll find a way to make em all work, when we try to stay within the limits of DCS and the software.

 

PS: I am an autostarter, too. There is no shame in saving precious little time for actual flying. This is why I am always in favor of more options: it lets everyone use the stuff to their liking. So we're on the same page here. The general useage of mouse however is to give yourself a) more breathing room for inputs that you really rarely need and b) to develope workflows. Switching stuff in the cockpit etc all figures into a screening/ workflow process that imo is extremely helpful for complex fighter jets, or aviation in general. But that's my take on it.

Good luck with finding a proper working setup for yourself, and please keep me posted about your progress. I'll help where I can.

Edited May 2, 2021 by IronMike

[draconus]

OK, since Mike gave some really helpful insights on how the mode switch really works I just tested something similar with my config. I went to DCS controls, F-14 module, clicked modifiers and added 2 buttons from my throttle as a "switch" (it's like a modifier, but you don't have to hold it, it's a toggle). Then I added 4 different bindings for one of the buttons on the stick: one without modifiers, one with previosly added switch, another one with second switch, and another with both switches added as "modifiers" in the combo. That worked as intended, meaning I was able to use all 4 functions from the one button on the stick, changing them by single presses of the "switches" from throttle.

So if your mode switch is physically fine and does make a single recognizable input in DCS I don't see a reason why it would not work when set as a switch with above method with the Logitech software totally disregarded and even preferably uninstalled to not mess with the settings and inputs in any way.

[M4ND4L0R3]

1 hour ago, draconus said:

So if your mode switch is physically fine and does make a single recognizable input in DCS I don't see a reason why it would not work when set as a switch with above method

Draconus...

 

Regarding DCS modifiers with logitech/saitech:

 

The " mode select " buttons wont work for an extended period of time. What Mike said is these three buttons/switches basically stop transmitting after a period of time, thus inducing the feeling that the " mode select " is not functioning as Logitech/Saitech said it would, which makes complete sense with all the testing I have been doing.

DCS needs a constant input to consider it a switch.

Mikes process works fine, because I am constantly holding a button down on the stick whilst using a toggle on the throttle. I then release the stick modifier and can use a different setting on the same throttle input, basically giving me the two " maps " I was looking for when using the " mode select " switch. So anyone looking to use their logitech setup can use this, it works great.  I am using the " B " button, or joy_3.

 

 

Regarding the logitech/saitech profiling app:

 

Mike has offered ( from my understanding ) to assist me having a look at how the profiler interacts with the game doing one macro at a time. I will probably invest some more time into this after I have logged some more hours with the F14 (but then again probably not). As I said, I can adapt to different situations and this method of setting a modifier is actually allowing me to play the game, which is what I wanted to do initially.

This method also still allows me to use my own " basemap " that I have across most of my planes ( landing gear in same location, flaps in same location etc ), so for me this is more than acceptable.



In Closing:

 

I will use the profiler for FC3/F18 ( and probably A-10 ll ), and I will use the stick modifier method for F14 until a future time where I have some time to make some video's showing the macro process in a one by one step phase.



Thanks Mike / Draconus, you can consider this topic answered. Any future issues I will just PM Mike directly.

 

 

[IronMike]

Glad to hear you found a way that works for you and glad that we could help!

[draconus]

18 hours ago, M4ND4L0R3 said:

DCS needs a constant input to consider it a switch.

No, it doesn't. You're confusing the switch with modifier and that's the only difference. I don't know if your mode switch can work like that but other buttons/switches should. I already tested it and told you how to set it up. Yes, any button can be made "mode switch" out of the box in DCS, no additional software needed or advised.

Would that work with every bindable function of F-14 or your desired setup? I don't know.

Edited May 3, 2021 by draconus