Will the R.550 always be inferior?

[gavagai]

Any hope?  I see all kinds of threads asking for fox-3 and dash-5 variants.  Whatever.  The R.550 is dog poop compared to the Aim-9m, and the 1970s 9L is better, too.

[myHelljumper]

Do you have any information on how the Magic II should perform compared to the one in game ?

[=36=Witcher]

You're comparing apples and oranges. R.550 is not AIM-9, none of its variants.

[Kercheiz]

On the other hand, it's better than Spitfire rounds. Seems pretty balanced IMHO

Edited April 27, 2021 by Kercheiz

[gavagai]

7 hours ago, myHelljumper said:

Do you have any information on how the Magic II should perform compared to the one in game ?

Obviously not or I would post it.

 

I'm just asking if there is hope that it might be improved someday or if it will always be 2nd rate compared to the Aim-9L/M.  Looks like I have my answer.

[myHelljumper]

I don't find it to be worst or better than  AIM-9Ms. We don't have any informations that would suggest that the MAGIC II performances are worst that they are IRL so we don't have any reason to change it.

 

Even more, missiles are in EDs hands now so we can't change them ourselves.

[OpticFlow]

On 4/27/2021 at 7:39 AM, gavagai said:

Any hope?  I see all kinds of threads asking for fox-3 and dash-5 variants.  Whatever.  The R.550 is dog poop compared to the Aim-9m, and the 1970s 9L is better, too.

 

Are we playing the same game? After AIM-9X and R-73, the Magic II is the best turning short range missile in the game, has better flare resistance than the R-73 and probably same as AIM-9M. It's range seems more limited than those other two on paper but I never had it run out of juice even when I get impatient and launch it at longer than the indicated max range. In dogfight range the missile is a killer, almost always scored a hit when I launched it.

[gavagai]

51 minutes ago, OpticFlow said:

 

Are we playing the same game? After AIM-9X and R-73, the Magic II is the best turning short range missile in the game, has better flare resistance than the R-73 and probably same as AIM-9M. It's range seems more limited than those other two on paper but I never had it run out of juice even when I get impatient and launch it at longer than the indicated max range. In dogfight range the missile is a killer, almost always scored a hit when I launched it.

I base my remarks on play testing with human opponents who also took turns in the M2K.  So we could be playing different games, yes.

[Kercheiz]

2 hours ago, gavagai said:

I base my remarks on play testing with human opponents who also took turns in the M2K.  So we could be playing different games, yes.

I'd rather point at the skills, then

[TLTeo]

The Magic works perfectly well for me tbh. Even if it had worse performance than the AIM-9L/M (and I never felt like it does), the better acquisition modes more than make up for it.

[Rytsar]

The question is why you are still using it.

 

Both the Mirage 2000-05F and the Rafale have long since shifted to the highly lethal MICA IR and RF and where the R.550 is a weapon from the mid-70s; even the Magic II (ALASCA) has been retired since the early 2000s.  It is literally not used by even the export air forces that I know, though some of the Latin American M2Ks may still employ it.

 

Meteor is brand new to the Rafale, relegating MICA RF to the secondary role of ISRM in most instances but on the Mirage 2005 (India, Taiwan, UAE) MICA is the best weapon available and though similarly sized to the Magic, the provision of datalinks on the RF weapons _massively_ extends their useful range.

[dundun92]

1 hour ago, Rytsar said:

The question is why you are still using it.

 

Both the Mirage 2000-05F and the Rafale have long since shifted to the highly lethal MICA IR and RF and where the R.550 is a weapon from the mid-70s; even the Magic II (ALASCA) has been retired since the early 2000s.  It is literally not used by even the export air forces that I know, though some of the Latin American M2Ks may still employ it.

 

Meteor is brand new to the Rafale, relegating MICA RF to the secondary role of ISRM in most instances but on the Mirage 2005 (India, Taiwan, UAE) MICA is the best weapon available and though similarly sized to the Magic, the provision of datalinks on the RF weapons _massively_ extends their useful range.

The DCS Mirage 2000C only has magics

[jojo]

3 hours ago, Rytsar said:

The question is why you are still using it.

 

Both the Mirage 2000-05F and the Rafale have long since shifted to the highly lethal MICA IR and RF and where the R.550 is a weapon from the mid-70s; even the Magic II (ALASCA) has been retired since the early 2000s.  It is literally not used by even the export air forces that I know, though some of the Latin American M2Ks may still employ it.

 

Meteor is brand new to the Rafale, relegating MICA RF to the secondary role of ISRM in most instances but on the Mirage 2005 (India, Taiwan, UAE) MICA is the best weapon available and though similarly sized to the Magic, the provision of datalinks on the RF weapons _massively_ extends their useful range.

 

It's like saying "why don't you use R-73 on MiG-21Bis ?"

 

Magic 2 version started to be delivered from 1986.

It's still in service on the remaining Mirage 2000C in service and Mirage 2000D (there is an ongoing MLU program on Mirage 2000D and they will get Mica IR).

 

DCS World is simulating a wide time frame of materials.

Yes, Mirage 2000C isn't the latest/ brightest kid on the block.

But it scenarios from mid-80' to late-90' where most fighters were Fox 1 shooters, it's more than capable.

Edited May 8, 2021 by jojo

[Mikeck]

Seems like you’re more interested in making it “better” b/c you like the mirage and want it to be that way. Whatever limitations the missile has in game are likely fairly accurate. You can’t expect them to make a missle better than other missiles just b/c you want game balance or to be able to kill stuff easier with your mirage. An Aim-9m is an Aim-9m....and other missiles that- in reality- are worse...or better are reflected that way in game. It’s not war thunder striving for balance 

[Rytsar]

19 hours ago, jojo said:

 

It's like saying "why don't you use R-73 on MiG-21Bis ?"

 

Magic 2 version started to be delivered from 1986.

It's still in service on the remaining Mirage 2000C in service and Mirage 2000D (there is an ongoing MLU program on Mirage 2000D and they will get Mica IR).

 

DCS World is simulating a wide time frame of materials.

Yes, Mirage 2000C isn't the latest/ brightest kid on the block.

But it scenarios from mid-80' to late-90' where most fighters were Fox 1 shooters, it's more than capable.

 

Fair enough.

 

WRT: Mirage 2000.

 

The issue I have is that the jet as a whole would be a whole lot more fun to play if you had the option to use the RDY radar instead of the RDM/RDI, glass cockpit instead of steam gauge system, along with six AAM + tanks (to compensate low internal fuel fraction) instead of just the four Magic or Magic/Super 530.

 

Throw in the ICMS3 level cued EXCM and ABD-2000/Remora combined jammer suite (costing you one AAM) and the jet would be an entirely new airframe with a 'heavy/light' configurable weapons load to compensate for the low end M53P2 thrust to weight ratio using multishot BVR capability to duel with types like the F-16 or JF-17.

 

If you just want to dogfight, fine.  The Mirage is quite good at it.  But if you want to do single player campaign or multiplayer, modern, air combat, the single seat Mirage 2000 could really use an upgrade to shift from the Magic to the MICA, pronto.

 

The Indians really like their Mirages because they are quite well equipped and consistently upgraded.  As the latest strike mission into Pakistan shows.

[jojo]

10 hours ago, Rytsar said:

Fair enough.

 

WRT: Mirage 2000.

 

The issue I have is that the jet as a whole would be a whole lot more fun to play if you had the option to use the RDY radar instead of the RDM/RDI, glass cockpit instead of steam gauge system, along with six AAM + tanks (to compensate low internal fuel fraction) instead of just the four Magic or Magic/Super 530.

 

Throw in the ICMS3 level cued EXCM and ABD-2000/Remora combined jammer suite (costing you one AAM) and the jet would be an entirely new airframe with a 'heavy/light' configurable weapons load to compensate for the low end M53P2 thrust to weight ratio using multishot BVR capability to duel with types like the F-16 or JF-17.

 

If you just want to dogfight, fine.  The Mirage is quite good at it.  But if you want to do single player campaign or multiplayer, modern, air combat, the single seat Mirage 2000 could really use an upgrade to shift from the Magic to the MICA, pronto.

 

The Indians really like their Mirages because they are quite well equipped and consistently upgraded.  As the latest strike mission into Pakistan shows.

 

That would be a totally different cockpit and weapon system, and probably nobody using it IRL wants it to be simulated.

People constantly request their dream jet fighter and totally forget that you need a lot of data to make it happen in DCS. It isn't best guess fantasy like Ace Combat.

 

And you know, people were already eager to fight and kill each others before Fox 3 era

Edited May 9, 2021 by jojo

[TLTeo]

10 hours ago, Rytsar said:

But if you want to do single player campaign or multiplayer, modern, air combat, the single seat Mirage 2000 could really use an upgrade to shift from the Magic to the MICA, pronto.

It's one of two things really. Either you recognize that the Mirage is a late 80s/early 90s aircraft, build your missions (whether they be SP or MP) accordingly, and enjoy the Mirage (and Fulcrum, and Flanker, and Viggen, and F-5, and Fishbed, and Mirage F1, and Mig-23, when they come out...) for what it is, or you fly airquake in which case you're playing glorified War Thunder with better flight models anyway, so complaining about "balance" and "muh capabilities" is pointless.

[Lynnux]

On 4/27/2021 at 10:28 AM, =36=Witcher said:

You're comparing apples and oranges. R.550 is not AIM-9, none of its variants.

Exactly.

 

AIM-9L:

- max. speed: Mach 2

- max. range 17.7 km

 

Matra R.550 Magic II:

- max. speed: Mach 3.5+

- max. range: 20 km

 

PL-5E:

- max. speed: Mach 2.5

- max. range: 16..18 km

 

All have so-called "all-aspect" IR seekers.

 

All data from the same reliable (*cough*) and famous western-oriented source

 

What's to be investigated is e.g. the behaviour to lock onto targets far outside range and then loose the lock until the target is reaquired at a much shorter range. This doesn't make sense to me...

 

[ZHeN]

Did magic II kills online vs human players in DCS at a distance of 25.92km (14nm)

Magic II is much more agile than AIM-9L/M, turns much better, can do HOBS

[skywalker22]

Check my Magic II, it wasn`t ready to fire inside 4 nautical miles!!!! This must not be right! Last I saw the distance to the Mig29 was 2.2 milles, and was still out of range! Was pressing the fire button like nuts, but no luck for me, instead of shooting down the Mig, I only got R-73 into my face

Based on all info I read, it should get into a max range at least at 5 knots or more!

It doesn`t happen always, but it still does, and it means something its not ok.

 

Me trying to shoot down Su-29, but R-550 didn`t want to cooperate.

 

Tacview-20210522-124835-DCS.zip.acmi

Edited May 22, 2021 by mitja_bonca

[Kercheiz]

You will get a much lower detection range if the adversary is facing you. Also, you didn't magic slave (unless the video compression washed it out)

[skywalker22]

31 minutes ago, Kercheiz said:

You will get a much lower detection range if the adversary is facing you. Also, you didn't magic slave (unless the video compression washed it out)

I got locked him up. It should fire. But if you pay attention on the Target Range scale on the right lower side of the HUD, you can clearly see that it indicates I`m out of reach, still out of Max shooting range, that`s why my missile didn`t want to shoot. Just right at the end when R-73 hit me, I came into the m max range, but even if I was desperately trying to launch my R.550, it it just didn`t go.

[Kercheiz]

Yes the range indication is not accurate, but AFAIK it does not prevent a missile launch.

No you never had any magic lock tone in that video . That’s why it didn’t launch. When you have a radar lock, you should press magic slave so that the magic searches towards the radar lock. Then you have a round flashing inside the square to show its in magic slave search mode, changing to a triangle when you have a lock.

And front facing IR lock is more difficult 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Kercheiz

[skywalker22]

 

Doesn`t that mean I have a locked target? I don`t need any tone, I had a tone of missile being shoot on me.

[Kercheiz]

You have a radar lock. Magic is IR so it’s not locked.

magic lock is a circle and a tone. 

If you have a double radar + IR lock it turns to a triangle.

You should watch some tutorials !