RWR Confusion

[flo57100]

Good afternoon all,

 

I´m a bit confused regarding the RWR, we will get the module equipped with the SPO-10 RWR, located next to the clock and above the moving map. Maybe I´m wrong, but it looks the same as equipped in the MiG-21.

 

However,  I just got a book stating that Mi-24V and further versions were equipped with the SPO-15 (see pictures).

Source book is Michael Noorman´s "Mil Mi-24 helicopter. In soviet/russian and worldwide service, 1972 to the present", page 98

 

So, here is the confusion,  what is the real thing here ?

Edited April 25, 2021 by flo57100

[Northstar98]

We're getting the SPO-10 as we're supposed to be getting a Mi-24P that represents one as used by Russia ~post mid 90s (though the difference between a Russian one from the mid 90s and an 80s Soviet aircraft is only 9M120 Ataka integration and the removal of Lipa (which is only effective at 1st gen MANPADS/IR SAMs anyway) - so if you take away 9M120 the aircraft is borderline indistinguishable from its earlier Soviet state).

 

I don't think Russian Mi-24Ps have SPO-15 installed - at least they lack the antennae for it seen on SPO-15 equipped -24Ps.

 

Here's a Russian one (can't see the SPO-15 antennae):

 

 

And here's a GDR one (with the gun removed), you can see one of the SPO-15 antennae in between the pilot cockpit and the top of passenger cabin door.

 

Edited April 29, 2021 by Northstar98

[Stratos]

5 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

 

 

 

 

 

Amazing pic of the a Russian Mi-24P with external fuel tanks. I hope they add more info about those tank status for DCS Hind.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Stratos

[flo57100]

33 minutes ago, Northstar98 said:

We're getting the SPO-10, we're supposed to be getting a Mi-24P that represents one as used by Russia ~post mid 90s (though the difference between a Russian one from the mid 90s and an 80s Soviet aircraft is 9M120 Ataka integration and the removal of Lipa (which is only effective at 1st gen MANPADS/IR SAMs anyway)).

 

On Russian Mi-24Ps I don't think they have SPO-15 installed - at least they lack the antennae for it seen on SPO-15 equipped -24Ps.

 

Here's a Russian one (can't see the SPO-15 antennae):

 

 

And here's a GDR one (with the gun removed), you can see one of the SPO-15 antennae in behind but roughly in line with the pilot cockpit, and the cabin door.

 

 

And the confusions grows bigger and bigger. Were there sub-variants of the Mi-24P also ? Specific P model for the GDR ? As stated by the book, all variants coming after the V should be SPO-15 equipped (so should be the P ?). Maybe an IRL Mi-24 expert should explain the differences, that would be interesting

[Northstar98]

On 4/25/2021 at 5:00 PM, flo57100 said:

And the confusions grows bigger and bigger. Were there sub-variants of the Mi-24P also ? Specific P model for the GDR ? As stated by the book, all variants coming after the V should be SPO-15 equipped (so should be the P ?). Maybe an IRL Mi-24 expert should explain the differences, that would be interesting

 

It might just be that export customers fitted their Hinds with SPO-15, as more or less a mod, whereas the native operator did not (or something).

 

In any case, I'm pretty sure we're supposed to be getting a -24P based on what is operated by Russia from the mid 90s onwards (like the picture I provided).

Edited May 27, 2021 by Northstar98

[S.E.Bulba]

3 часа назад, flo57100 сказал:

And the confusions grows bigger and bigger. Were there sub-variants of the Mi-24P also ? Specific P model for the GDR ? As stated by the book, all variants coming after the V should be SPO-15 equipped (so should be the P ?). Maybe an IRL Mi-24 expert should explain the differences, that would be interesting

The Mi-24D, Mi-24V & Mi-24P export variants were named Mi-25, Mi-35 & Mi-35P, respectively (the last one should not be confused with the modern Mi-35P Phoenix). Only export variants were equipped with the SPO-15.
 

Скрытый текст

Original in Russian

 

Экспортные варианты Ми-24Д, Ми-24В и Ми-24П именовались Ми-25, Ми-35 и Ми-35П соответственно (последний не следует путать с современным Ми-35П «Феникс»). Только экспортные варианты оснащались СПО-15.

 

[foxbat155]

Not only export P's were equipped with SPO-15, some amount of Soviet 24P's had that system aswell, pictures are easy to find over web. Developers choosed SPO-10 equipped variant, officialy because this was most common case, but in my opinion real reasons were different: probably SPO-15 docs are still confidental in Russia, and SPO-10 is far easier to develop due to it's simplificity.

[CrazyGman]

On 4/25/2021 at 1:20 PM, S.E.Bulba said:

The Mi-24D, Mi-24V & Mi-24P export variants were named Mi-25, Mi-35 & Mi-35P, respectively (the last one should not be confused with the modern Mi-35P Phoenix). Only export variants were equipped with the SPO-15.

  Hide contents

 

 

Also not to be confused with the

MI-24P-1M.

From the looks of it the Mi-24s (including the vanila Mi-24p we are getting) were doing well enough in Syria that Russia is considering modifying of it's existing fleet of Mi-24s and cutting back on purchasing new Mi-28, Ka-52, and

Mi-35Ms.

 

I wonder if the Mi-35Ps have the better engines like the Mi-35Ms

 

Personally i like the look of the mi-35P more then the Mi-35Ms since it retains the big wing and retractable gear

 

 

Edited April 27, 2021 by CrazyGman

[S.E.Bulba]

1 час назад, foxbat155 сказал:

Not only export P's were equipped with SPO-15, some amount of Soviet 24P's had that system aswell…

No, these were not "Soviet 24Ps". These helicopters were supposed to be exported, but for some reason they were not delivered to a foreign customer. That is, in fact, these were all the same export Mi-35Ps.

03.08.2020 в 13:15, Кайрат сказал:

Уточнил. Стоят на наших машинах СПО-15. Сам видел. Но данные машины должны были идти на экспорт. Прав ты был.

 

1 час назад, foxbat155 сказал:

… pictures are easy to find over web.

Good luck.
 

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Original in Russian

 

Нет, это были не «советские 24П». Эти вертолёты должны были пойти на экспорт, но по какой-то причине не были поставлены иностранному заказчику. То есть фактически это были всё те же экспортные Ми-35П.

 

Удачи.

 

[flo57100]

1 hour ago, foxbat155 said:

Not only export P's were equipped with SPO-15, some amount of Soviet 24P's had that system aswell, pictures are easy to find over web. Developers choosed SPO-10 equipped variant, officialy because this was most common case, but in my opinion real reasons were different: probably SPO-15 docs are still confidental in Russia, and SPO-10 is far easier to develop due to it's simplificity.

 

OK, SPO-15 might have been not chosen because of confidentiality reason . But on the other hand,  SPO-15 is the RWR we have in Su-27/33, MiG-29 and Su-25(T) in game, so why would it available in thèse modules and classified for the Mi-24 ?

[foxbat155]

9 minutes ago, S.E.Bulba said:

Good luck.
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Original in Russian

 

Нет, это были не «советские 24П». Эти вертолёты должны были пойти на экспорт, но по какой-то причине не были поставлены иностранному заказчику. То есть фактически это были всё те же экспортные Ми-35П.

 

Удачи.

 

 

Here we go, first from google search:

 

7 minutes ago, flo57100 said:

 

OK, SPO-15 might have been not chosen because of confidentiality reason . But on the other hand,  SPO-15 is the RWR we have in Su-27/33, MiG-29 and Su-25(T) in game, so why would it available in thèse modules and classified for the Mi-24 ?

SPO-15 we have right now in FC3 aircrafts have very little common with real system.

[S.E.Bulba]

10 минут назад, foxbat155 сказал:

Here we go, first from google search…

However, how did you determine from the photo that it was the "Soviet 24P" in front of you, and not the export Mi-35P, which remained in the Russian army due to the fact that it was not sold to the customer? 
 

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Original in Russian

 

Однако как Вы определили по фото, что перед Вами именно «советский 24П», а не экспортный Ми-35П, который остался в российской армии из-за того, что его не продали заказчику? 

 

[foxbat155]

Of course, I cannot say only by the picture this machine was intended for export or not, important is her service within Soviet and then Russian Air Force. Mi-24P production was terminated in 1989, so for sure she had service during soviets times. The best part is, that you cannot state definitelly that she is NOT a domestic variant, serial number probably will help. Fact is, that SPO-15 equipped P's were flying in many places, including home country. Yes, most P's had SPO-10, but SPO-15 had use as well, so no reason to not take advantage from more modern system, which is historically proper, no sci-fi here. That's why I believe that background of this decision is far from official statements.

[Morri]

Quote

SPO-15 docs are still confidental in Russia,

It's probably not this, as they're doing a mig-29 which as far as I am aware, also has an SPO-15

[BeastyBaiter]

My guess is it is very simple; they have access to a Mi-24P with the SPO-10 and so that is what they are modeling. It is a very pragmatic choice on that basis alone. There is also the argument that when modeling an aircraft, it should represent the typical configuration. If the SPO-10 is more common in the Mi-24P, then it is rational to use that system in game.

[S.E.Bulba]

33 минуты назад, foxbat155 сказал:

… important is her service within Soviet and then Russian Air Force. Mi-24P production was terminated in 1989, so for sure she had service during soviets times.

This is not a fact. The helicopter could have been at the plant for several years, starting from 1988–1989, where it first underwent factory tests, and then awaited the decision of its fate by a foreign customer. As you probably know, at this time the Warsaw Treaty Organization was collapsing, so the customer probably did not have the opportunity to acquire new helicopters… well, and then he refused to purchase them altogether. Therefore, after 1992, the helicopter could already get into the Russian army, and not into the Soviet one.

 

38 минут назад, foxbat155 сказал:

The best part is, that you cannot state definitelly that she is NOT a domestic variant, serial number probably will help. Fact is, that SPO-15 equipped P's were flying in many places, including home country.

The best part is that you are trying to prove something based only on photos and your personal speculations. 
 

Скрытый текст

Original in Russian

 

Это не факт. Вертолёт мог несколько лет находиться на заводе, начиная с 1988–1989 годов, где сначала проходил заводские испытания, а потом ожидал решения своей судьбы иностранным заказчиком. Как Вы наверное знаете, в это время происходил распад Организации Варшавского договора, поэтому у заказчика вероятно не было возможностей для приобретения новых вертолётов… ну, а потом он вообще отказался от их приобретения. Поэтому после 1992 года вертолёт мог попасть уже в российскую армию, а не в советскую.

 

Самое приятное в том, что Вы пытаетесь что-то доказать, опираясь лишь на фото и Ваши личные домыслы. 

 

[XPACT]

Am I the only one thinking that SPO-10 is actually fine with the way Mi-24P is intended to be used?

[foxbat155]

10 hours ago, S.E.Bulba said:

This is not a fact. The helicopter could have been at the plant for several years, starting from 1988–1989, where it first underwent factory tests, and then awaited the decision of its fate by a foreign customer. As you probably know, at this time the Warsaw Treaty Organization was collapsing, so the customer probably did not have the opportunity to acquire new helicopters… well, and then he refused to purchase them altogether. Therefore, after 1992, the helicopter could already get into the Russian army, and not into the Soviet one.

 

The best part is that you are trying to prove something based only on photos and your personal speculations. 
 

  Reveal hidden contents

Original in Russian

 

Это не факт. Вертолёт мог несколько лет находиться на заводе, начиная с 1988–1989 годов, где сначала проходил заводские испытания, а потом ожидал решения своей судьбы иностранным заказчиком. Как Вы наверное знаете, в это время происходил распад Организации Варшавского договора, поэтому у заказчика вероятно не было возможностей для приобретения новых вертолётов… ну, а потом он вообще отказался от их приобретения. Поэтому после 1992 года вертолёт мог попасть уже в российскую армию, а не в советскую.

 

Самое приятное в том, что Вы пытаетесь что-то доказать, опираясь лишь на фото и Ваши личные домыслы. 

 

Well, im not trying prove anything because I don't have to. Photos shows true, Mi-24P with SPO-15 were in RuAF service for almost last 30 years. Even if those machines weren't in Soviet service and were produced for export, at the moment when they were introduced into RuAF service, after appropriate persons signed appropriate documents they became domestic. That fact, and you cannot denied this, especially that all of them are named Mi-24P and rwr is a only diffenrence between them. That's why argument "we doing domestic variant" is questionable.

[pepin1234]

I opened this same discussion time ago. In mi opinion is not bad idea and they will be in the real simulation anyway. Most of the Warsaw Pact and including Cuba, all them received SPO-15 RWR. The reason URSS units were not equipped with this RWR IS NOT a reason to not include it in the game as a optional system in mission editor. Even so some RWR SPO-15 were used in Cuito Cuanavale Battle and they were used in real combat. Why not... stop limit people with things have been real.

[S.E.Bulba]

2 часа назад, foxbat155 сказал:

Even if those machines weren't in Soviet service and were produced for export, at the moment when they were introduced into RuAF service, after appropriate persons signed appropriate documents they became domestic. That fact, and you cannot denied this, especially that all of them are named Mi-24P and rwr is a only diffenrence between them.

It is very likely that the RWR is not the only difference. Most likely, there are also small differences in weapons.

 

In any case, the fact is that several export helicopters, which by chance ended up in the RuAF service, are rather an exception to the rule than a rule… that is, in the words of the ED developers, they are simply "exotic". 

 

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Original in Russian

 

Очень вероятно, что RWR – это не единственное отличие. Скорее всего также имеются небольшие отличия и в вооружении.

 

В любом случае факт в том, что несколько экспортных вертолётов, волею случая оказавшихся на вооружении российских ВКС – это скорее исключение из правил, чем правило… то есть, говоря словами разработчиков ED – просто «экзотика». 

 

[foxbat155]

Well, we have so many exotic stuff in already existing modules, so compared to them SPO-15 is very trivial, I'm personaly dissapointed that developers decided to go with SPO-10, I really like idea of Bieryoza's display hanght over the gunsight . And lack of a hood for blind flying is a double shame.

[Kerberos]

I also think the SPO-10 is a good choice by ED. On all the photos I have seen from Syria the russianMi-24p there don't have the SPO-15 antenna.

And since there will be an Afghanistan map with a likely Mi-24 campaign being developed for it, I would rather have a Mi-24p that fits in this scenario aswell.

[Quadg]

thinking in the cold war was very different.

survivability of attack helicopters was seen as low.

 

export customers put better RWR on their helicopters to increase this. marginally.

soviet thinking was that a RWR would be used as an excuse to not enter the forward edge of the battle area.

why RWR is lacking in soviet era aircraft.

yes a RWR is an advantage. the SPO-10.

but one that gives too much information is actually seen as a disadvantage.

achieve the operational objective.

or die trying.

don't come back and say it was too hot.

quantity over quality.

which did beat the Germans.

 

they want operational tempo. successive blows without delay.

rather than superior firepower or tactical superiority..

stagger and wear the opponent out.

if it has low survivability, increase the production rate. use the command economy we didn't have in the west (the uk had problems with workers striking during the war..)

the Germans lost because they could only manage one operation per summer. a low operational tempo.

the Russians won because they eventually started carrying out operations all year.

and all the Germans could do is react.

they lost the initiative.  

the Russians call it the operational art of war.

 

everybody starts the next war in the same way they won the last one.

 

 

[XPACT]

Export nations usually don't have enough intelligence on what type of threats they will encounter not to mention the fact that they also won't control airspace as whole when deploying their attack helicopters, there it is advantageous to have better RWR suite that will help with survival.

 

Russia on the other hand will have that information and airspace will be controlled fully and clear of any threat when using their attack helicopters (same reason American versions of Apache didn't have Stingers, they don't need them, you can't encounter air threat where there is no one flying except your friends) which means that only one able to shoot you down will be either IR type manpad/system in which case RWR doesn't help at all or some radar guided type of defense and there you are fine with hemisphere of radiation and lock sound, in my opinion that is all you need to know.

 

And yes, I would also like SPO-15 just because missions could be created without other kinds of air support, but they probably didn't model it because SPO-15 is still classified and too advanced, even tho many think it's simple the way it operates is very complex (current game representation in FC3 is wrong on so many levels).

[Snappy]

The issue at hand with the RWR notwithstanding, it would be nice if ED got some consistency into their approach to simulating aircraft/ building modules.
Because its kind of annoying having one module not equipped with system XYZ  with the reason being given:  "yea, because the aircraft variant we base it on  and/or  the Air Force of  Country X whose aircraft we model,   is not equipped with it " , but then on the other hand you have other ED modules (F-16 being a prime example) being done with fantasy weapon systems (triple MAV racks , and the 4 HARMs on pylons )  despite the aircraft its being modelled on and the respective Air Force , not even having  the wiring for it or the  certification for use .

 

 

This double standard and inconsistency is what  ticks me off a bit.  

 

Regards,

Snappy

 

Edited April 28, 2021 by Snappy