Again problem with radar and rockets

[Nahen]

I will not write the same again - that's why I will post a link.

 

In fact, maybe I should write here right away, but I think that the problem is not the radar and rocket model itself, but the latest updates and patches that broke something in it.

 

 

[GGTharos]

There's no APGv2 equipped en masse, just the Elmendorf bids for testing.  It got passed over for the v3 and F-15s started getting equipped with those only recently.

 

Your notion of missile ranges comes from wikipedia, which doesn't offer anything useful with respect to missile range.  Missile flight ranges are correct as is.  To get the longest ranges you need to be high, fast (M1.5+) and so does your target and it needs to not maneuver.

 

The radar ranges are the same as they have been before for the F-15C (most fighter aircraft are detected at ~65-70nm), and 120s increased effective range.  However, these and other missiles have a very limited operational time, so if you're hoping to get a very long ranged kill you need the above scenario.   The rule of thumb is you need 2sec/nm for a head-on shot, and the missile has 80 sec of power.  So, what does 40nm give you?   And what happens of the target maneuvers?  (beam is 3sec/nm and tail is 4sec/nm).

 

Those are rules of thumb so they don't apply to every single scenario, which is why the high-fast scenario is also important.

[Nahen]

The effective range of the missiles is set by manufacturers in "medium" optimal conditions. What does it mean? That, depending on the conditions, it can be significantly shortened but also significantly lengthened. F-15C fighter flying on 50 000 feet altituda at speed Mach 2.2-2.5 firing AiM-120C to a target with an RSO of about 10-15 square meters, who flying 20 000 feet lower without maneuvering (bomber, heavy fighter) it can easily hit a distance of 80-100 miles.
The same fighter will not see and no hit the target be 20 miles away with the same AiM-120 rocket if its RSO is less than 1 square meter, and high speed and do much maneuvering. 
If someone thinks that radars in today's airplanes (or in fact since the 1990s) "see" only for 70 miles and that rockets in combination with them allow you to attack air targets only from a distance of less than 40-30 miles, it probably has no idea at all on radar, aviation and military technology at the turn of the XX-XXI centuries.

Planes without radar armed with infrared missiles guided by ground controllers are more than enough to attack a target from a distance of less than 40 miles. But I thought that the times of "domination" of the MiG-21 and F-5E or A-4 ended a long time ago. But as you can see, today the "norm" in DCS is not the actual work of systems and weapons, but the "artificially" created reality based on historical fights such as during the Desert Storm or other conflicts, where the American air force have huge advantage and did not must to attack / defend themselves at distances that are safe for their aircraft. Since in 1991 in Iraq 90% of the shotdowns making by F-15 were shots with Aim-7 Sparrow at distances of up to 20 km,  according ED the AiM-120 probably couldn't be better ... Then we have radars and rockets fully operative on 40-70 miles only. Embarrassment. For what from 1980 to today producers mounted in airplanes radars and systems searching and targetting in airspace on 160-300 miles ? For what, ED  implementing in modules radars with search ranging above 100mil? Today this is usseless.

[GGTharos]

36 minutes ago, Nahen said:

The effective range of the missiles is set by manufacturers in "medium" optimal conditions. What does it mean? That, depending on the conditions, it can be significantly shortened but also significantly lengthened. F-15C fighter flying on 50 000 feet altituda at speed Mach 2.2-2.5 firing AiM-120C to a target with an RSO of about 10-15 square meters, who flying 20 000 feet lower without maneuvering (bomber, heavy fighter) it can easily hit a distance of 80-100 miles.

 

That sounds entirely made up.  80nm would require a 1nm/sec closure average.  That's highly unlikely even with the high altitude high speed shot when your bandit is subsonic - it is at the very best a marginal shot that would be on the edge of power running out for the missile.   Sparrow has an Rmax of 53nm IRL and it requires both target and shooter to be at 50000' and mach 2 or more.

Manufacturers say whatever range they wish to say in their brochures.  Either way it's sanitized.

 

Quote

The same fighter will not see and no hit the target be 20 miles away with the same AiM-120 rocket if its RSO is less than 1 square meter, and high speed and do much maneuvering.

 

1sqm targets can be seen 40nm or further depending on the radar; even some small modern radars can do this (APG-68v9).  Generally anything smaller than 1sqm won't be maneuvering either as it's likely to be a cruise missile - and AIM-120s were specifically not accepted into service until they could shoot those down.

 

The RCS by the radar equation would have to be around 0.06-0.08 to first see it on a radar at 20nm if it can pick up 1sqm at 40nm.

 

Quote

If someone thinks that radars in today's airplanes (or in fact since the 1990s) "see" only for 70 miles and that rockets in combination with them allow you to attack air targets only from a distance of less than 40-30 miles, it probably has no idea at all on radar, aviation and military technology at the turn of the XX-XXI centuries.

 

You act like you know what you're talking about, you're being condescending about it, but you're just making things up.

 

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Since in 1991 in Iraq 90% of the shotdowns making by F-15 were shots with Aim-7 Sparrow at distances of up to 20 km,  according ED the AiM-120 probably couldn't be better ... Then we have radars and rockets fully operative on 40-70 miles only. Embarrassment. For what from 1980 to today producers mounted in airplanes radars and systems searching and targetting in airspace on 160-300 miles ? For what, ED  implementing in modules radars with search ranging above 100mil? Today this is usseless.

 

More specifically the longest sparrow shot was medium to low altitude at 15nm.  That was the max range shot.   The max range 30000' head on for the AIM-7 shot at subsonic speeds is about 25nm, as per actual F-18HuD imagery taken in combat conditions.

There are very good range to target maneuvering/non-maneuvering document for older versions of sparrow as well - bad news - even if the new rocket motor, it's not going to magically gain range like what you want.

Your speculations aren't relevant - that the F-15 should be seeing fighter sized contacts about 90nm away is a documented type thing, not speculation.   So, lucky guess on your end, I guess?   The rest is just just wrong.

Edited May 13, 2021 by GGTharos

[Skysurfer]

58 minutes ago, Nahen said:

The effective range of the missiles is set by manufacturers in "medium" optimal conditions. What does it mean? That, depending on the conditions, it can be significantly shortened but also significantly lengthened. F-15C fighter flying on 50 000 feet altituda at speed Mach 2.2-2.5 firing AiM-120C to a target with an RSO of about 10-15 square meters, who flying 20 000 feet lower without maneuvering (bomber, heavy fighter) it can easily hit a distance of 80-100 miles.
The same fighter will not see and no hit the target be 20 miles away with the same AiM-120 rocket if its RSO is less than 1 square meter, and high speed and do much maneuvering. 
If someone thinks that radars in today's airplanes (or in fact since the 1990s) "see" only for 70 miles and that rockets in combination with them allow you to attack air targets only from a distance of less than 40-30 miles, it probably has no idea at all on radar, aviation and military technology at the turn of the XX-XXI centuries.

Planes without radar armed with infrared missiles guided by ground controllers are more than enough to attack a target from a distance of less than 40 miles. But I thought that the times of "domination" of the MiG-21 and F-5E or A-4 ended a long time ago. But as you can see, today the "norm" in DCS is not the actual work of systems and weapons, but the "artificially" created reality based on historical fights such as during the Desert Storm or other conflicts, where the American air force have huge advantage and did not must to attack / defend themselves at distances that are safe for their aircraft. Since in 1991 in Iraq 90% of the shotdowns making by F-15 were shots with Aim-7 Sparrow at distances of up to 20 km,  according ED the AiM-120 probably couldn't be better ... Then we have radars and rockets fully operative on 40-70 miles only. Embarrassment. For what from 1980 to today producers mounted in airplanes radars and systems searching and targetting in airspace on 160-300 miles ? For what, ED  implementing in modules radars with search ranging above 100mil? Today this is usseless.

 

Nice bait.

[Nahen]

Yes it bait...

 

Answer two simple questions for me:
Why are airplanes loaded with radars whose specifications and operating parameters guarantee the detection of air targets at distances up to 160-300 miles?

MiG-25/31 or F-14 also do not see and are not able to direct missiles at targets distant from them by 100-200 miles? Will you now prove that these planes are alien technology and that no Earth plane could and cannot do that?

It just so happens that during the Cold War I had the opportunity to see differences in the size of objects detected by both early warning and airspace control stations on the border of the "iron curtain". Do you know from what distance you could see, for example, the SR-71? Do you know what is his the reflectivity of radio waves? I perfectly saw the difference between it and, for example, the F-4/16/15 or the Tornado flying over the former West Germany and the MiG-21/23/29 flying over East Germany and Poland. More than once I have talked with MiG-21 and MiG-23 pilots who on their on obsolete radars easily saw Swedish or West German planes when they flew near  East Germany and Poland and F-4/16 or Viggens flew over their countries at distances of 80-170 miles. So that the MiG-21/23 in the years 1980-1990 had better radars than the F-15/16 ?? Comparing what the DCS gives in the F-15 and F-16 modules, it is not half the capabilities of the MiG-21/23 radars in actual aircraft from those years. MiG-21 from 11 PLM from Dębrzno flying over the territorial waters of Poland were able to "see" Swedish planes on their radars - distances from 40 to 80 miles. MiG-23 from 23 PLM from Redzikowo calmly monitored planes over the continental part of Sweden on their radars. Distances up to 100-130 miles. The same goes west over West Germany.

It turns out that the F-15, considered to have the best and most effective radar of that period, according to what we get in the DCS, does not match the MiG-21 and MiG-23 super radars. And it's not about the ability to attack with a rocket - but about the ability to detect a target itself. Currently, in the "face to face" aspect, the F-15C radar can detect a maximum of a Su-27-sized fighter from 60-70 miles. And "stupid Americans" in 1980-1985 considered assigning the F-15 the role of a tactical "mini" AWACS that could guide other planes to targets detected by its systems. as you can see, the MiG-21 and MiG-23 were much "better with these bricks".

Do you want to discuss further with what radar systems did and could do in the real world? What I wrote here are REAL observations taking place at a specific time. Zero Wikipedia. The ground air traffic tracking and control system located 20 km from the 11 PLM airport in Dębrzno was able to track the SR-71 from West Germany at the height of Hannover to Moscow. Attempts to intercept it took place from the border of East Germany and throughout Russia. I myself witnessed the MiG-21 being scramble up from Debrzno several times for this very purpose. Of course, totally unnecessary. But the pilots confirmed that they were able to catch BlackBird on their radars from 50-60 km away. (25-35 miles). The DCS F-15 would probably have to stick the radar shield into the SR-71's butt to see it.

It all. 
Live on the belief that the F-15C cannot detect a target beyond 70 miles and fire at it - whether effectively or not - from more than 35 miles.

 

For me EoT. DCS is most real simulations... 

 

Currently, F / A-18 has the best radar and the rest of the modules should be nerfed to its level ... Then we will have a super simulator of World War II air combat on more or less modern airplanes ... and who needs a radar?

 

 

[GGTharos]

2 hours ago, Nahen said:

Yes it bait...

 

Your post is.

 

Quote

Answer two simple questions for me:
Why are airplanes loaded with radars whose specifications and operating parameters guarantee the detection of air targets at distances up to 160-300 miles?

 

Show me the operating manual which guarantees such range.  Your question is meaningless.

 

Quote

MiG-25/31 or F-14 also do not see and are not able to direct missiles at targets distant from them by 100-200 miles? Will you now prove that these planes are alien technology and that no Earth plane could and cannot do that?

 

I have parts of the F-14 combat manual which lists the detection ranges against certain RCS targets.   The maximum range for launching 54A is dictated by the following factors:

1) Target RCS (And therefore TWS shots are limited to 50nm for fighter type targets, 90 for bombers)

2) The missile's flight time of 160 sec (you will not get a DLZ displayed/computed beyond this flight time)  which means the range is 80nm or less with exception for engagements which do not fall into the timing rule of thumb.   The longest AIM-54 shot is 142nm vs a high altitude, nonmaneuvering supersonic (M2+) drone with a huge radar reflector mounted on it, with same for the launch aircraft.

 

In case you haven't picked up on what's being said here yet, the average shooting distance in TWS will be 90nm or less for bombers and 50nm or less for fighters IRL.   The detection range vs. a 5sqm target (fighter type) for the AWG-9 is 90nm in RWS/TWS HPRF and 115nm in VS (which you can't use to employ weapons).

 

Quote

MiG-21 from 11 PLM from Dębrzno flying over the territorial waters of Poland were able to "see" Swedish planes on their radars - distances from 40 to 80 miles. MiG-23 from 23 PLM from Redzikowo calmly monitored planes over the continental part of Sweden on their radars. Distances up to 100-130 miles.

 

Waiting for proof of this absurd claim   I suppose if those monitored aircraft had 1000sqm RCS ...  

It's absolutely amazing that you're asking me about reflectivity of radio waves but you didn't even do a even a basic rule-of-thumb-check that your claims would fit the radar equation.

 

Quote

It turns out that the F-15, considered to have the best and most effective radar of that period, according to what we get in the DCS, does not match the MiG-21 and MiG-23 super radars.

 

The F-15's radar approximately matches the F-14 radar (Same antenna size and technology, both use HPRF, both are X-Band, both use approximately the same amount of power), with ranges as described above.  Yep, it's too short ranged in DCS and we already have bug threads for it, as well as appropriate documentation having been send to ED, not this stuff you're making up.

 

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Currently, in the "face to face" aspect, the F-15C radar can detect a maximum of a Su-27-sized fighter from 60-70 miles.

 

Yep, it's about 20-25nm too short, as you'll see from forum posts we're all too aware of this.  But we're not making up figures, we have actual documentation for this.

 

Quote

And "stupid Americans" in 1980-1985 considered assigning the F-15 the role of a tactical "mini" AWACS that could guide other planes to targets detected by its systems. as you can see, the MiG-21 and MiG-23 were much "better with these bricks".

 

This means absolutely nothing.

 

Quote

Do you want to discuss further with what radar systems did and could do in the real world? What I wrote here are REAL observations taking place at a specific time. Zero Wikipedia.

 

You've written nothing of practical use.

 

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The ground air traffic tracking and control system located 20 km from the 11 PLM airport in Dębrzno was able to track the SR-71 from West Germany at the height of Hannover to Moscow. Attempts to intercept it took place from the border of East Germany and throughout Russia. I myself witnessed the MiG-21 being scramble up from Debrzno several times for this very purpose. Of course, totally unnecessary. But the pilots confirmed that they were able to catch BlackBird on their radars from 50-60 km away. (25-35 miles). The DCS F-15 would probably have to stick the radar shield into the SR-71's butt to see it.

 

The SR-71 has a huge RCS, the ability to detect this large aircraft from afar is not new and well documented.   It's also irrelevant when it comes to modeling a specific radar unless you know the specifics of the radar itself and the RCS of the target.

 

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Live on the belief that the F-15C cannot detect a target beyond 70 miles and fire at it - whether effectively or not - from more than 35 miles.

 

I don't need to 'believe' anything, there is some documentation for the specific radar set.

 

Quote

Currently, F / A-18 has the best radar and the rest of the modules should be nerfed to its level ... 

 

The F-16 has the best radar (in terms of range) and requires a review as it is far too long-ranged.   Similarly, the F-18 has been 'put in its place' as it should have been.   That the F-15 needs to have increased detection range is a separate subject, not relative or related to the F-18.  Each of these aircraft have their own documentation for the radar, some better, some worse and you only need to compare them relatively if you lack a lot of information about a specific radar set but you know it's similar to another - then you can use the radar equation to make a relatively educated guess.

 

Edit:  I don't know what knowledge you have, but again, ED doesn't care for anything that you wrote.  Only documentation.

Edited May 13, 2021 by GGTharos

[Skysurfer]

1 hour ago, Nahen said:

Yes it bait...

 

Answer two simple questions for me:
Why are airplanes loaded with radars whose specifications and operating parameters guarantee the detection of air targets at distances up to 160-300 miles?

MiG-25/31 or F-14 also do not see and are not able to direct missiles at targets distant from them by 100-200 miles? Will you now prove that these planes are alien technology and that no Earth plane could and cannot do that?

It just so happens that during the Cold War I had the opportunity to see differences in the size of objects detected by both early warning and airspace control stations on the border of the "iron curtain". Do you know from what distance you could see, for example, the SR-71? Do you know what is his the reflectivity of radio waves? I perfectly saw the difference between it and, for example, the F-4/16/15 or the Tornado flying over the former West Germany and the MiG-21/23/29 flying over East Germany and Poland. More than once I have talked with MiG-21 and MiG-23 pilots who on their on obsolete radars easily saw Swedish or West German planes when they flew near  East Germany and Poland and F-4/16 or Viggens flew over their countries at distances of 80-170 miles. So that the MiG-21/23 in the years 1980-1990 had better radars than the F-15/16 ?? Comparing what the DCS gives in the F-15 and F-16 modules, it is not half the capabilities of the MiG-21/23 radars in actual aircraft from those years. MiG-21 from 11 PLM from Dębrzno flying over the territorial waters of Poland were able to "see" Swedish planes on their radars - distances from 40 to 80 miles. MiG-23 from 23 PLM from Redzikowo calmly monitored planes over the continental part of Sweden on their radars. Distances up to 100-130 miles. The same goes west over West Germany.

It turns out that the F-15, considered to have the best and most effective radar of that period, according to what we get in the DCS, does not match the MiG-21 and MiG-23 super radars. And it's not about the ability to attack with a rocket - but about the ability to detect a target itself. Currently, in the "face to face" aspect, the F-15C radar can detect a maximum of a Su-27-sized fighter from 60-70 miles. And "stupid Americans" in 1980-1985 considered assigning the F-15 the role of a tactical "mini" AWACS that could guide other planes to targets detected by its systems. as you can see, the MiG-21 and MiG-23 were much "better with these bricks".

Do you want to discuss further with what radar systems did and could do in the real world? What I wrote here are REAL observations taking place at a specific time. Zero Wikipedia. The ground air traffic tracking and control system located 20 km from the 11 PLM airport in Dębrzno was able to track the SR-71 from West Germany at the height of Hannover to Moscow. Attempts to intercept it took place from the border of East Germany and throughout Russia. I myself witnessed the MiG-21 being scramble up from Debrzno several times for this very purpose. Of course, totally unnecessary. But the pilots confirmed that they were able to catch BlackBird on their radars from 50-60 km away. (25-35 miles). The DCS F-15 would probably have to stick the radar shield into the SR-71's butt to see it.

It all. 
Live on the belief that the F-15C cannot detect a target beyond 70 miles and fire at it - whether effectively or not - from more than 35 miles.

 

For me EoT. DCS is most real simulations... 

 

Currently, F / A-18 has the best radar and the rest of the modules should be nerfed to its level ... Then we will have a super simulator of World War II air combat on more or less modern airplanes ... and who needs a radar?

 

 

 

Before posting this, what you should have done:

 

[GGTharos]

On 5/13/2021 at 8:39 AM, Nahen said:

If someone thinks that radars in today's airplanes (or in fact since the 1990s) "see" only for 70 miles and that rockets in combination with them allow you to attack air targets only from a distance of less than 40-30 miles, it probably has no idea at all on radar, aviation and military technology at the turn of the XX-XXI centuries.

 

Coming back just to show you the simple back-of-the-envelope calculations.

 

Assuming an F-15C launching from mach 2, an AMRAAM that will fly a lofted path while maintaining an approximate average ground speed of mach 4 for about 80 seconds (the amount of available operating time of the AIM-120).

 

At 50000', the speed of sound is 573kts, which gives our AIM-120 the ability to fly approximately 52nm from the point of launch to the expiration of available power at 80 seconds.

Our target, flying also at 50000' and mach 2, will fly approximately 26nm in 80 seconds.  Add the two up, you get about 78nm for the absolute maximum range shot.

If your target is flying at Mach 0.8 at 20000' instead, it will only fly about 13nm in 80 seconds, so you're now down to 64nm for a max shot.

 

And again, these are marginal shots, you need to shoot a little closer to guarantee a hit on a non-maneuvering target.

 

Shoot the 120 at subsonic speed and you immediately lose a bunch of average speed, so at an average of mach 3 that same missile will fly 39nm ... you've lost over 10 nm of range, and you will lose more of it as the shot altitude decreases, because increasing density reduces average speed.

Edited May 14, 2021 by GGTharos

[Spurts]

On 5/14/2021 at 3:05 PM, GGTharos said:

about 80 seconds (the amount of available operating time of the AIM-120).

 

Where is this listed?  Not saying it's wrong or right I just want to know where it came from.

[GGTharos]

Assumed based on the datalink timeout information in the weapons manuals.   There's no text directly specifying the amount/time of power available to the missile.   Just the fact that even on a lost missile, the datalink is terminated after a maximum of 80 seconds of operation, IIRC.

 

And therefore, that is the time the 120 has been given before 'power runs out' in DCS.

Edited May 19, 2021 by GGTharos

[dundun92]

3 hours ago, Spurts said:

Where is this listed?  Not saying it's wrong or right I just want to know where it came from.

The HAF F-16 -34 lists that the data link to the missile is terminated after 80s due to "time of flight/max flight  time constraints", or something to that effect, and battery is pretty much the only hard TOF constraint like that

[Spurts]

Fascinating.  So improvements in on-board power could absolutely increase the maximum range even if nothing else changes, albeit at reduced kinematic capability.  Thank you!

[GGTharos]

45 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Fascinating.  So improvements in on-board power could absolutely increase the maximum range even if nothing else changes, albeit at reduced kinematic capability.  Thank you!

 

Actually there's more 'air time' than there is battery time in this case so ...

 

Unlike the sparrow, which also has an open-loop hydraulic system so it really has to avoid maneuvering until the time is right.  Its power is available for 75 seconds, and that part is, IIRC, well documented.

[nighthawk2174]

1 hour ago, dundun92 said:

The HAF F-16 -34 lists that the data link to the missile is terminated after 80s due to "time of flight/max flight  time constraints", or something to that effect, and battery is pretty much the only hard TOF constraint like that

iirc that's for the A/B right?  I've always wondered if the same limit applies to the C as it did get newer (and smaller) electronics.

Edited May 19, 2021 by nighthawk2174

[dundun92]

2 minutes ago, nighthawk2174 said:

iirc that's for the A/B right?  I've always wondered if the same limit applies to the C as it did get newer (and smaller) electronics.

 

The specific reference in the HAF -34 is for the B, yes.

[Vekkinho]

On 5/13/2021 at 2:39 PM, Nahen said:

Since in 1991 in Iraq 90% of the shotdowns making by F-15 were shots with Aim-7 Sparrow at distances of up to 20 km,

...and this would be to the fact that Coallition fighters had to visually ID the target before taking any shots. So actually all missile engagements in Desert Storm happened at a guns distance. F-15C flight lead acredited with Foxbat kill said he was informed by AWACS of approaching Fulcrum pair but before they merged these jets appeared to him like twin tailed F-15C or wing swept F-14 painted in older black radome color, trailing tell tale smoke of a F-4. So he had to fly formation with a target to look for any differences, he managed to note oversized nozzles once that Foxbat turned AB on so he repositioned back to WEZ and Fox1. Sparrow went up his afterburning tail pipe and explosion was absent because it disappeared in a volume of afterburning plume that Foxbat pushed out. His wingman shot the other one.

[Vekkinho]

That Flogger pilot seeing Swedish Viggen at a 120NM distance in his Flogger scope had a 20/20 eyesight or had a lot of vodka. Or was it a SAS DC-10?

 

@Nahen, fact is that Flogger pilot you spoke to never saw anything in his career, he might hear of something being out there from his GCI officer but he used same doctrine as everybody else in Soviet PVO and that was to keep quiet, listen to GCI and fly low into a rear hemisphere of a target you're being vectored to. Pop up, radar on, lock - track - shoot - track - kill followed by radar off and beeline back. So the only contacts he could really lock onto to track on his Flogger radar are the ones he could see with his naked eye being at 5nm distance. He's telling you bedtime stories of Snow White and 7 dwarfs.

Edited July 16, 2021 by Vekkinho

[Cmptohocah]

On 7/16/2021 at 1:04 PM, Vekkinho said:

...and this would be to the fact that Coallition fighters had to visually ID the target before taking any shots. So actually all missile engagements in Desert Storm happened at a guns distance.

 

This is not true. Fact is that after an incident in which an Eagle shot down friendly Apache, rules of engagement were quite strict, but the pilots were not obliged to make a visual ID. You can have a look on YT, where an Eagle pilot (Cesar Rodrigues) talks about performing an ID matrix on his IFF.

[GGTharos]

That was a pair of BlackHawks and VID was performed.

 

That aside, the fact is that the F-15 was the only aircraft cleared to declare hostile independent from AWACS.

Edited July 17, 2021 by GGTharos

[Vekkinho]

19 hours ago, GGTharos said:

That aside, the fact is that the F-15 was the only aircraft cleared to declare hostile independent from AWACS.

 

...on top of that what was declared as a Fulcrum by AWACS was identified as Foxbat by the F-15C pilot that shot it. Here's entire interview with Kluso:

https://youtu.be/cbcUJZKI98A