DCS flight model vs. historical account

[austinnh]

The book "Luftwaffe Fighter Aces" by Mike Spick (available free here) contains this excerpt British test pilot Eric Brown, on flying a captured FW 190 A-4 (emphasis mine):

Quote

The stalling speed of the FW 190A-4 in clean configuration was 127mph and the stall came suddenly and without warning, the port wing dropping so violently that the aircraft almost inverted itself. In fact, if the German fighter was pulled into a g-stall in a tight turn, it would flick out on to the opposite bank and an incipient spin was the inevitable outcome if the pilot did not have his wits about him.

This is different from the behavior I find in DCS where the stall comes with plenty of warning in the form of shaking. This happens for me in both low-speed and high-speed/high-G stalls. If anything it's the Mustang in DCS that has a sudden (high-G) stall without warning.

 

So why the difference? Is this an inaccuracy of the flight model or maybe a difference between the A-4 and A-8 variants? I do notice that Wikipedia states that "A structurally redesigned and lighter wing was introduced" as of the A-6 variant so maybe this wing also had a different profile that changed the stalling behavior?

[Cunctator]

Beginning with the A5 the engine was moved forward by several inches and the cowling became accordingly longer. The A8 has heavier armament and armor compared to the A4. Completely plausible that the CoG has changed and thus stalling behavior is different.  

[Hornetjock]

I just re-read Eric Browns "Wings on my Sleeve" where he discusses the FW 190. "A vicious stall and difficult to land. Excellent roll response..." That is my experience in DCS. Strangely, Eric favoured a 190 over other available aircraft to get around German airfields looking for captured aircraft. When I sign into DCS I always start with an Anton landing. Toughest test there is in DCS IMO. I get it right about 50%.

[rkk01]

Main reason I struggle in the Anton in a 1-2-1 with anything else...

 

Any turns require very light stick pull, otherwise speed rapidly bleeds to around 300, followed by the port wing drop.

 

I always struggle in 1-2-1 against AI Mustangs - haven’t found an offensive or defensive tactic that works... climb, turn, dive, the Anton has neither speed nor turn rate to provide an advantage...

 

Dora on the other hand has the speed to provide options - extend, gain alt, re engage.

 

I don’t do too bad on Anton landings (often bent but unbroken), but on take off she always tries to fly before she’s above that port wing drop speed - especially with the 500kg bomb

[grafspee]

I don't know what ppl expected from Anton. That it would be some kind step up from Dora or Kurfurst ??

It may be shocking for some ppl but Anton is step down in terms of pure performance.

It is about as fast as Mk IX, with much lower climb rate, and much lower turn capability, only roll rate is great.

Most of the fights were multiple fighter engagements. No historical account will proof anything in 1vs1 scenario.

Most of 1vs1 fights were just surprise attacks, no single performance value matters here.

And comparing player vs Ai is just meh. Ai setup in DCS or any other combat sim is not realistic.

Join MP server, then you can compare those planes.

Edited May 13, 2021 by grafspee

[rkk01]

17 minutes ago, grafspee said:

I don't know what ppl expected from Anton. That it would be some kind step up from Dora or Kurfurst ??

It may be shocking for some ppl but Anton is step down in terms of pure performance.

It is about as fast as Mk IX, with much lower climb rate, and much lower turn capability, only roll rate is great.

Most of the fights were multiple fighter engagements. No historical account will proof anything in 1vs1 scenario.

Most of 1vs1 fights were just surprise attacks, no single performance value matters here.

And comparing player vs Ai is just meh. Ai setup in DCS or any other combat sim is not realistic.

Join MP server, then you can compare those planes.

 

Totally agree, and wasn’t suggesting otherwise...

 

I’d expected the A8 to be an excellent and hard hitting gun platform for attacking bombers and ground targets - and it is...

 

The point of my comment on AI 1-2-1 was that it shows the Anton’s FM - loses speed rapidly in turns and flicks into a left wing drop stall

[grafspee]

On 5/13/2021 at 11:37 AM, rkk01 said:

loses speed rapidly in turns and flicks into a left wing drop stall

This is exactly why Anton don't like turning, it loses speed and stalls, why it loses speed? Because it require high AOA to induce tight turn, much higher then spitfire or bf-109, high AoA = high induced drag, this slows Anton down pretty quick. What to do about it, you don't want to to change wing design, but you can add power. Why Dora feels better at turning +2000hp engine does the job, higher power partialy mitigate  induced drag in turning.

If you would attach 10k hp turbo prop to Anton it would out turn spitfire easlly

[amazingme]

On 7/2/2021 at 4:38 PM, grafspee said:

This is exactly why Anton don't like turning, it loses speed and stalls, why it loses speed? Because it require high AOA to induce tight turn, much higher then spitfire or bf-109, high AoA = high induced drag, this slows Anton down pretty quick. What to do about it, you don't want to to change wing design, but you can add power. Why Dora feels better at turning +2000hp engine does the job, higher power partialy mitigate  induced drag in turning.

If you would attach 10k hp turbo prop to Anton it would out turn spitfire easlly

 Of course, it must get the emergency power it needs..