Any new Hind news?

[Lurker]

3 minutes ago, WinterH said:

And I am one of them. And yet...

 

So why would you wan't them to nerf this very important part of the sim? So that other people can't enjoy it the way it was meant to be flown? Don't you think that's a bit selfish? 

[WinterH]

9 minutes ago, Lurker said:

 

So why would you wan't them to nerf this very important part of the sim? So that other people can't enjoy it the way it was meant to be flown? Don't you think that's a bit selfish? 

Eh, already said my piece, and believe it to be fairly comprehensible, so will leave it at that. Besides, all along I've said "imo", it's not like I'm screaming "ED should remove every feature I don't like" :).

 

In my view letting a magical bot do the identifiying and killing is opposite of the way it was meant to be flown, even if said magical being is somewhat reined in.

 

Also terms "nerf" and "buff" shouldn't even belong on these forums. They tend to imply artificially decreasing/increasing capability of something to balance its gameplay performance against other fictional game assets, as opposed to modeling something as close as possible to reality.

 

Anyway, it is already announced by ED that we will have an AI that can do these things, so it will come, either at release, or later at some point. Unless ED drops out on that (which I honestly doubt will happen), you will get to enjoy it the way you like.

 

I would also enjoy if that is possible to disable, even on singleplayer experience, so would hope for that as well. EVeryone's happy I hope?

[Gierasimov]

I pre-ordered Hind to enjoy it in SP, I fine with Petrovich spotting targets and guiding missiles. DCS for me is mostly about piloting skills and tactics. Actual combat element is a great bonus. 

Now, you still need to fly correctly so that Petrovich can spot things and shoot them up. It will be my mistakes to learn from and correct, not his. That's perfect. 

 

It's like Supercarrier AI LSO, you do it good and it works, you do something outside of proper CASE1/2/3 procedure and AI is not going do too well.

[notproplayer3]

I guess you're debating how you are going to fly the hind in combat. In that case it isn't really a debate as you are free to fly as you wish though I agree with WinterH in the sense that if we've got petrovich that does most of the combat related stuff, it only seems natural to me to have the option to disable him and do everything ourselves if we so wish to do that. 

[Gierasimov]

6 minutes ago, notproplayer3 said:

I guess you're debating how you are going to fly the hind in combat. In that case it isn't really a debate as you are free to fly as you wish though I agree with WinterH in the sense that if we've got petrovich that does most of the combat related stuff, it only seems natural to me to have the option to disable him and do everything ourselves if we so wish to do that. 

You seem to miss the point that there is only one Petrovich, so if you are in the front cockpit he is at the back, which means you need him to tell him where to go, alt and heading, speed, hover, while you manage the combat aspect from the front cockpit. 

 

Who is going to do that in SP if you disable him...?

[WinterH]

3 minutes ago, Gierasimov said:

Who is going to do that in SP if you disable him...?

I would assume notproplayer3 meant disabling Petrovich gunner features, it is what I want as an option myself.

[Gierasimov]

9 minutes ago, WinterH said:

I would assume notproplayer3 meant disabling Petrovich gunner features, it is what I want as an option myself.

That option is there, no? Already third iteration coming as well. 

[WinterH]

Is it? Do we have a clear list of what is and isn't available somewhere? I'm not aware of one. Though, right now I'm more in the mindset of "we'll find out soon enough"  it's weeks to perhaps a month away at this point I'd think. If the current estimate holds, it's literally two weeks

 

This is what I have been looking forward to most in DCS for quite a long time. Always wanted a good Hind sim since mid 90s when I was a teenager. I'll enjoy the hell out of it either way

[Gierasimov]

6 minutes ago, WinterH said:

Is it? 

 

 

Yeah, sorry mate, bad joke. 

Black Shark 2 / 3

[notproplayer3]

1 hour ago, WinterH said:

I would assume notproplayer3 meant disabling Petrovich gunner features, it is what I want as an option myself.

Yes, exactly that !

[Dograw75]

3 hours ago, WinterH said:

Eh, already said my piece, and believe it to be fairly comprehensible, so will leave it at that. Besides, all along I've said "imo", it's not like I'm screaming "ED should remove every feature I don't like" :).

 

In my view letting a magical bot do the identifiying and killing is opposite of the way it was meant to be flown, even if said magical being is somewhat reined in.

 

Also terms "nerf" and "buff" shouldn't even belong on these forums. They tend to imply artificially decreasing/increasing capability of something to balance its gameplay performance against other fictional game assets, as opposed to modeling something as close as possible to reality.

 

Anyway, it is already announced by ED that we will have an AI that can do these things, so it will come, either at release, or later at some point. Unless ED drops out on that (which I honestly doubt will happen), you will get to enjoy it the way you like.

 

I would also enjoy if that is possible to disable, even on singleplayer experience, so would hope for that as well. EVeryone's happy I hope?

You can of course choose to be the gunner and control all that, and petrovich fly the plane, so Im not sure I see your point.  Unless you are saying that you want to control everything yourself, except maybe an autopilot, but of course then it would be completely unrealistic and unauthentic, which is not really what this sim is about.  It takes a two person crew to fly and enploy weapons on this bird, so it requires either two players or one and an AI to play.  The AI is still controlled largely by you, via instructions given.   It seems to me to change that and make everything simplified and  accessible from the cockpit would be to arcadish.  Petrovich would seem to be more nuanced than just perfectly one shotting random targets, otherwise it would not require such extensive programming.  In that case they couldve just used the existing AI model for the Mi24 that is already in game.

[Fri13]

The AI has capabilities and limitations how it can spot enemies. And to assist player, AFAIK it should get a virtual HMS ring for player to command AI to center their search for a given sector when player spots something and wants to give a hint for AI where to look. "Look at 2'clock 1 klick" as a style, and AI need to try find target by itself then in that area.

 

So it is not a AI as we know that calls all units inside 10 km and then performs a first straight attack run to them and get shot down by something else closer by.

 

You get a new GUI for commanding AI how to fly and how to operate. Something that is easier and better than Jester in F-14.

[WinterH]

2 hours ago, Dograw75 said:

You can of course choose to be the gunner and control all that, and petrovich fly the plane, so Im not sure I see your point.

I can, yes, and I want an option so that Petrovich won't look for targets and shoot them with Shturms/Atakas unless I go to gunner seat and do so myself. I'm fine with callouts like Jester does though. I want Petrovich to be able to a pilot, but not a gunner. Obviously our definitions for unrealistic and unauthentic are polar opposites, which is fine.

[Dograw75]

2 hours ago, WinterH said:

I can, yes, and I want an option so that Petrovich won't look for targets and shoot them with Shturms/Atakas unless I go to gunner seat and do so myself. I'm fine with callouts like Jester does though. I want Petrovich to be able to a pilot, but not a gunner. Obviously our definitions for unrealistic and unauthentic are polar opposites, which is fine.

What Im saying is unrealistic is being gunner and pilot in Hind.  Thats not realistic by any objective measure.  Petrovich can be gunner, or pilot, as indicated in previously released info.  I believe if he is gunner it will, or at least can, be set to only fire at targets indicated by you according to type, range and direction, though I am not positive on this. But as far as petrovich being a pilot, and you the gunner or vice versa, that has been confirmed.

EDIT:  There is a post where developers have stated that when thebai is operating weapons they will bascially be fallible, as in not able to see all targets, range and visibilty will affect detection and accuracy, and there will be response time programmed in so even upon detection, readying and aiming weapons will not be instant.   It just seems to me that covers your complaint.  Im not trying to be argumentative,  as opinions vary and not every one want the same thing.  Im just saying if they deliver on these features then the AI should be fine by your previously mentioned concerns, and justify the time spent in development.  

Edited June 1, 2021 by Dograw75
Add info

[Lurker]

I assume there will be some sort of communication between the AI Petrovich (as the gunner) and the player in the back-seat. Something along the lines of "Target spotted at 11 o clock, MBT, Comrade!" and then you will be able to give the command to shoot, hold fire, or whatever via a radial menu (similar to Jester). 

[Stratos]

3 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I assume there will be some sort of communication between the AI Petrovich (as the gunner) and the player in the back-seat. Something along the lines of "Target spotted at 11 o clock, MBT, Comrade!" and then you will be able to give the command to shoot, hold fire, or whatever via a radial menu (similar to Jester). 

I hope next video deals with Petrovich, showing us how it will work, both as an AI pilot and AI gunner.

[Lurker]

21 minutes ago, Stratos said:

I hope next video deals with Petrovich, showing us how it will work, both as an AI pilot and AI gunner.

 

According to the last newsletter apparently they will be showing us it's piloting abilities. There was no mention of it being used as a gunner, which is why I've been a bit worried that it won't be able to do any of that on early access launch, from the newsletter: 

Petrovich

We have finished work on the hover flight mode for the Petrovich command and lateral and vertical movements using this system. The latency in command reception by Petrovich is in progress, and it will mimic the real life crew  lag when communicating and processing information. In the next update, we will share details on Petrovich flight modes and how to use it in combat.

[lmp]

AFAIK employing ATGMs in the Hind is very much a two person job. The pilots needs to keep the target within a rather tight angle off boresight throughout the flight of the missile. We seem to have a few people here quite knowledgeable about the Hind, feel free to correct me if I'm getting something wrong. Thus I don't think the AI gunner will just "fire at will" - rather that he will wait for a confirmation from the commander that the target is correct and that the commander is ready.

 

I do think that there should be an option to disable the AI crew, but I also do believe that it should be able to work each of the roles to enable us to experience the Hind in SP to the fullest extent possible.

[Danzig]

20 hours ago, sagent54 said:

The only problem in that discussion that you didn't mention unpossibleness of switching between seats in multiplayer. Or it will be implemented?

This! 

I hope it will. But like in the huey i think some players has always to be in a controling seat 

[Grievo]

I mean my two cents on this...

 

I get the impulse for not wanting the AI to do tasks such as acquiring targets and firing the weapons on them, but for me, I want to simulate the aircraft operation as much as possible. I don't want to switch seats etc. I'd like to be able to operate from the front or back seat and have the AI do a reasonable job of controlling the functions of the other seat. One of the things I'm not keen on with the Gazelle is the seat jumping that is required.

 

Horses for courses though. I understand why on competetive multiplayer servers you'd not want the AI doing as much.

[sublime]

20 hours ago, Fri13 said:

The AI has capabilities and limitations how it can spot enemies. And to assist player, AFAIK it should get a virtual HMS ring for player to command AI to center their search for a given sector when player spots something and wants to give a hint for AI where to look. "Look at 2'clock 1 klick" as a style, and AI need to try find target by itself then in that area.

 

So it is not a AI as we know that calls all units inside 10 km and then performs a first straight attack run to them and get shot down by something else closer by.

 

You get a new GUI for commanding AI how to fly and how to operate. Something that is easier and better than Jester in F-14.

Let's hold off on declaring anything 'easier or better' than jester until it's actually here.  All this is purely hypothetical on our end. Jester is already out and working and was from EA first release as well (!!) 

Until Petrov. Shows up and indeed IS better I'll reserve judgement.  People are too quick to wave away what jester can do or the fact there never was an analogue to jester before the fact.

Nevermind the fact that the implementation may well be clunkier ; or the AI may be inept in comparison.

I hope not we will see.

5 hours ago, lmp said:

AFAIK employing ATGMs in the Hind is very much a two person job. The pilots needs to keep the target within a rather tight angle off boresight throughout the flight of the missile. We seem to have a few people here quite knowledgeable about the Hind, feel free to correct me if I'm getting something wrong. Thus I don't think the AI gunner will just "fire at will" - rather that he will wait for a confirmation from the commander that the target is correct and that the commander is ready.

 

I do think that there should be an option to disable the AI crew, but I also do believe that it should be able to work each of the roles to enable us to experience the Hind in SP to the fullest extent possible.

This is why I want him to be able to shoot them.  It's a 2 person job.  Period.  Rockets etc aren't really.  But there's no if ands or buts about it 

[lmp]

6 minutes ago, sublime said:

This is why I want him to be able to shoot them.

In case I wasn't clear, that's also what I want. The AI crew should be able to perform any role in the helicopter (or none at all, if the player chooses so) and that of course includes the gunner's role of shooting and guiding the ATGMs.

[ltdan83]

Who shoots the fixed 30mm and the rockets?

[Fri13]

39 minutes ago, sublime said:

Let's hold off on declaring anything 'easier or better' than jester until it's actually here.  All this is purely hypothetical on our end.

 

It is not hypothetical from parts that ED has already explained and shown.

You can't get Jester (Iceman) fly or search your looked direction. It is similar that you can command Jester to change speed with +/- 50/100/200 knots, but in Mi-24 it is with 10 km/h stepping via scroll list (WIP).

 

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=zTy7o2tIlzk&t=180

 

 

39 minutes ago, sublime said:

Jester is already out and working and was from EA first release as well (!!) 

Until Petrov. Shows up and indeed IS better I'll reserve judgement. 

 

If you know how these interfaces are designed and what are their pros and cons, it is easier to understand.

 

The Jester is challenging as the pie-menu is primarily for player to play the another seat without going to by itself to do it. Like switch seat to adjust radios or to jettison weapons etc. It is more as new virtual interface for another cockpit where the AI will try to finish the actual task.

 

39 minutes ago, sublime said:

People are too quick to wave away what jester can do or the fact there never was an analogue to jester before the fact.

 

Not in DCS, but Jester is not first of its kind and not unique. I even explained the Jester before it was known by anyone else than Heatblur when F-14 was announced when in discussions people wondered how to fly a two separated cockpit aircraft, and my hypothetical explanation was almost spot on, as I had explained such earlier for other purposes in DCS before Heatblur even existed (had not separated).

 

39 minutes ago, sublime said:

Nevermind the fact that the implementation may well be clunkier ; or the AI may be inept in comparison.

I hope not we will see.

 

Of course there can be all kind bugs, as the Petrovitch is adding new features that example Jester doesn't perform because it doesn't need to. 

 

We need to remember that where Jester flies and operates closer to 15 000 ft, the Petrovitch is operating at ground level to max 2500 m or so from it

 

 

39 minutes ago, sublime said:

This is why I want him to be able to shoot them.  It's a 2 person job.  Period.  Rockets etc aren't really.  But there's no if ands or buts about it 

 

Only thing that you mainly need to do is to have the gunner aiming cross inside the pilot gunsight.

So gunner says that he has a target and your task as pilot is to turn toward the heading to see crosshair. Then gunner is authorized to launch by the system.

 

When the missile is flying, pilot is free to fly +/- 60 degree angle from the target and stay under IIRC +/- 30-40 degree roll angle so that targeting system doesn't hit gimbal limit and reset (boresight) to center.

 

The gunner job is to do same as tank gunner does, maintain crosshair on target as sight is stabilized to Mi-24 and not to target (if Hind moves 50 meters to left, sight moves 50 meters to left).

 

If we can tell Petrovitch to look specific area, target wanted target, it is almost as doing it alone.

6 minutes ago, ltdan83 said:

Who shoots the fixed 30mm and the rockets?

Pilot.

 

The gunner can as well take them as control if pilot is incapacitated. But gunner has only same sight as Mi-8MTV2 offers for pilot. So no CCIP computing.

[Fri13]

7 hours ago, lmp said:

AFAIK employing ATGMs in the Hind is very much a two person job. The pilots needs to keep the target within a rather tight angle off boresight throughout the flight of the missile. We seem to have a few people here quite knowledgeable about the Hind, feel free to correct me if I'm getting something wrong. 

 

Pilot is free to fly inside +/- 60 degrees from the target, and required to maintain +/- 60 degree roll (just rechecked).

 

you need to be heading the target when launching missile so that target is inside pilot gunsight.

 

7 hours ago, lmp said:

Thus I don't think the AI gunner will just "fire at will" - rather that he will wait for a confirmation from the commander that the target is correct and that the commander is ready.

 

I believe that pilot will authorize launch, but you can always deny missile by just not having gunner cross inside gunsight. System doesn't allow launch then.

 

7 hours ago, lmp said:

I do think that there should be an option to disable the AI crew, but I also do believe that it should be able to work each of the roles to enable us to experience the Hind in SP to the fullest extent possible.

 

Totally so...