corrrect as is HMD draws TD box in the HUD area. Can it be prevented?

[escaner]

The HMD automatically rejects most of its symbology when looking through the HUD, but when we have an A/A target locked, it displays its TD box anyway in the HUD area. Therefore many times we see two TD boxes in the HUD: one drawn by the HUD itself and the other one by the HMD. This situation is very confusing for me, because most of the time they do not even match position due to field of view limits in both displays.

Is there a way to prevent the HMD from displaying the TD box in the HUD area?

Is this behavior even correct? It seems so weird and confusing...

 

PS: sorry if this has been discussed earlier, but I cannot find any post about it.

Thanks for your help

[oldcrusty]

On 4/17/2021 at 12:41 AM, escaner said:

The HMD automatically rejects most of its symbology when looking through the HUD, but when we have an A/A target locked, it displays its TD box anyway in the HUD area. Therefore many times we see two TD boxes in the HUD: one drawn by the HUD itself and the other one by the HMD. This situation is very confusing for me, because most of the time they do not even match position due to field of view limits in both displays.

Is there a way to prevent the HMD from displaying the TD box in the HUD area?

Is this behavior even correct? It seems so weird and confusing...

 

PS: sorry if this has been discussed earlier, but I cannot find any post about it.

Thanks for your help

 

This also happens with A/G designation. As I was lining up on the target marked with solid diamond on the HUD, the HMD dashed diamond was hovering not far above. It is very distracting.

[Hulkbust44]

Just toggle it with the RECEE/Event mark "switch."

I do it all the time. I use to just turn the JHMCS off since I had the axis bound, not a good idea anymore...

Mobius708

[oldcrusty]

3 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Just toggle it with the RECEE/Event mark "switch."

I do it all the time. I use to just turn the JHMCS off since I had the axis bound, not a good idea anymore...

Mobius708
 

 

I know, there's always a band aid...

 

I'm going to try again to get my point across:  It is not correct as is.

There are 2 major issues that I can see right off the bat:  1. HUD blanking acts as an ON/OFF switch triggered by HMD's center cross approaching the HUD frame, side to side. From the top, it blanks when the cross hits 3 deg. above the combiner glass. 

It should be a smooth blanking starting when the HMD's FOV edge hits the HUD frame.

 

Issue #2: Dead zone for ACM modes acquisition around the HUD frame. I tested this using LACQ mode. 

LACQ circle doesn't show up until the HMD cross is about 8 deg. (?) from the HUD's frame. That's about where the HMD's FOV edge is... what the heck?

 

This video shows these 2 problems.

 

[Swift.]

 

That's how it is in the real thing, it would appear.

[oldcrusty]

10 minutes ago, Swiftwin9s said:

 

That's how it is in the real thing, it would appear.

 

To me it would appear that it's a motion blur of TD box moving across the HUD FOV. There is no duplicate data displayed anywhere.

There are various ways of making HMD data interface with HUD in different jets...  All of the one I've seen make sense. Our current implementation doesn't. 

[Swift.]

8 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

 

To me it would appear that it's a motion blur of TD box moving across the HUD FOV. There is no duplicate data displayed anywhere.

There are various ways of making HMD data interface with HUD in different jets...  All of the one I've seen make sense. Our current implementation doesn't. 

We must be watching different videos then...

 

[oldcrusty]

52 minutes ago, Swiftwin9s said:

We must be watching different videos then...

 

 

I see only 1 TD box... anyways, what do you think about the 'dead zone' I described in my vid?

[oldcrusty]

Another method that would be very intuitive and 'clear' is to blank the HUD from displaying weapons envelopes and TD box(s) as soon as the priority goes to HMD. This would give you a smooth and solid display of important data on HMD regardless of where you're pointing your head. When pressing undesignate or switching priority to anything else the HUD would take it back.

[dorianR666]

On 7/30/2021 at 7:34 PM, Swiftwin9s said:

 

That's how it is in the real thing, it would appear.

Good video. However it actually is evidence of at least one bug in regards to blanking - selected weapon name and count disappear when automatically blanked over HUD.

This doesnt happen in DCS, youll see them twice (HUD+HMD). @BIGNEWY are these facts known? I cant tell if this thread was marked correct-as-is in april or after the video post.

 

jhmcs_blanking_bug.trk

 

(HUD brightness toned down for clarity of what belongs to what)

 

 

There are some more differences, like the line from cross to TD and "Friend" under TD both displayed in the HMD in the video. This doesnt happen in DCS either. Not sure what to think of that.

 

[escaner]

How was that video recorded? Is it a superposition of the aircraft recording the HMD display over a gopro video mounted on the helmet? There the symbology on the HMD is very easily made out from the one on the HUD (this one is not even in focus and cannot be read at all).

 

The problem in the sim is that it is very difficult to distinguish between the symbology in the HUD and the one in the helmet, so for example when I get something like in this video, with 2 TD boxes one pointing up and the other one that seems to be pointing down because it is drawn on the lower of the HUD, it is painfully confusing. And in dogfights this happens all the time.

 

I am sure that we are missing something here. Probably in the real life is easy to differentiate which symbology is from the HUD and which from the HMD and everything is more intuitive Perhaps because of the missing arrow in the HMD that Dorian says. Perhaps because the HMD is only in one eye or it is just more apparent. But I am sure that it cannot be as confusing as what we have now in DCS or they would have told the HMD developer to modify it.

 

 

 

[oldcrusty]

and last but not least, the zone around the HUD that prevents LACQ (and possibly other ACM modes) to see and acquire anything. The radar certainly doesn't have any 'gaps' in this area.

[Beamscanner]

6 hours ago, escaner said:

How was that video recorded? Is it a superposition of the aircraft recording the HMD display over a gopro video mounted on the helmet? There the symbology on the HMD is very easily made out from the one on the HUD (this one is not even in focus and cannot be read at all).

 

The problem in the sim is that it is very difficult to distinguish between the symbology in the HUD and the one in the helmet, so for example when I get something like in this video, with 2 TD boxes one pointing up and the other one that seems to be pointing down because it is drawn on the lower of the HUD, it is painfully confusing. And in dogfights this happens all the time.

 

I am sure that we are missing something here. Probably in the real life is easy to differentiate which symbology is from the HUD and which from the HMD and everything is more intuitive Perhaps because of the missing arrow in the HMD that Dorian says. Perhaps because the HMD is only in one eye or it is just more apparent. But I am sure that it cannot be as confusing as what we have now in DCS or they would have told the HMD developer to modify it.

 

 

 

The HMD TD box should have an arrow indicating that the HMD TD box is outside the FOV.. That would fix the ambiguity between the two TD boxes. 

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Beamscanner

[Wizard_03]

Vertical, wide, and bore work fine looking through the HUD

7 hours ago, escaner said:

How was that video recorded? Is it a superposition of the aircraft recording the HMD display over a gopro video mounted on the helmet? There the symbology on the HMD is very easily made out from the one on the HUD (this one is not even in focus and cannot be read at all).

 

The problem in the sim is that it is very difficult to distinguish between the symbology in the HUD and the one in the helmet, so for example when I get something like in this video, with 2 TD boxes one pointing up and the other one that seems to be pointing down because it is drawn on the lower of the HUD, it is painfully confusing. And in dogfights this happens all the time.

 

I am sure that we are missing something here. Probably in the real life is easy to differentiate which symbology is from the HUD and which from the HMD and everything is more intuitive Perhaps because of the missing arrow in the HMD that Dorian says. Perhaps because the HMD is only in one eye or it is just more apparent. But I am sure that it cannot be as confusing as what we have now in DCS or they would have told the HMD developer to modify it.

 

 

 

It was recorded using the aircrafts tapes look at the video panel in game you have HMD and HUD recording options.

 

What can help with the two TD boxes issue is changing your head view in the game. Right now in that video your head LOS is pointed at the dash which for some reason is default, so basically the game has the center position looking down relative to the hud so your effectively aiming the HMD with your chin, To fix this turn off your head tracking, use the number keys to move the view so that the cross on the HMD and the W mark on the hud are aligned and use the save angles key (Ralt + Num0 by default). Restart your head tracking device and next time the boxes will be pretty much be drawn on top of each other, they might be a little blurry because they overlap but they wont appear to be in two different directions anymore. Its pretty much exactly like The RW video above if you do that.

 

Helpful links:

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/192649-jhmcs-how-to-change-its-onscreen-position

 

https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/191983-head-position-not-right-for-me-using-trackir5

 

Edited August 1, 2021 by Wizard_03

[oldcrusty]

6 hours ago, Gripes323 said:

and last but not least, the zone around the HUD that prevents LACQ (and possibly other ACM modes) to see and acquire anything. The radar certainly doesn't have any 'gaps' in this area.

 

Actually, I think we have a bigger issue then just visual mess here. I tested the LACQ mode again and basically this mode is inactive not just outside of the HUD frame but also over entire HUD area (except a small band at the top of the HUD).  This is a very useful mode and should work within the radar gimbal limits, including HUD area.

When I glanced a radar page I could see the scan line frozen when moving my HMD cross anywhere over the HUD. This shouldn't be the case. It makes no sense.

I'll make a bug report when I have a chance.

[Wizard_03]

57 minutes ago, Gripes323 said:

 

Actually, I think we have a bigger issue then just visual mess here. I tested the LACQ mode again and basically this mode is inactive not just outside of the HUD frame but also over entire HUD area (except a small band at the top of the HUD).  This is a very useful mode and should work within the radar gimbal limits, including HUD area.

When I glanced a radar page I could see the scan line frozen when moving my HMD cross anywhere over the HUD. This shouldn't be the case. It makes no sense.

I'll make a bug report when I have a chance.

Based on what? It defaults to bore anytime you look through the HUD with the HMD. If your wanting to lock something ahead of you have 3 other ACM modes you can use. 

 

What doesn't make sense?

[Hulkbust44]

Based on what? It defaults to bore anytime you look through the HUD with the HMD. If your wanting to lock something ahead of you have 3 other ACM modes you can use. 
 
What doesn't make sense?

HACQ is 10nm, LACQ is up to 40nm. No reason that LACQ can see to 40 everywhere but the HUD. It acts like it's HACQ when LACQ is selected.

Mobius708

[Wizard_03]

It acts like bore because it switches to bore. If your looking through the HUD, both HMD modes are disabled, and it uses bore sight.

 

Use the other ACM modes up close or the attack page if it's outside their range. HMD is meant for off bore cuing, why would you want use it over the attack page if something is dead ahead of you 40 miles away?

Edited August 2, 2021 by Wizard_03

[oldcrusty]

11 hours ago, Hulkbust44 said:

HACQ is 10nm, LACQ is up to 40nm. No reason that LACQ can see to 40 everywhere but the HUD. It acts like it's HACQ when LACQ is selected.

Mobius708
 

 

LACQ, HACQ... these are HMD modes. When I put sensor priority to HMD I want it to stay there. It's not just about a visual distance. There's is a lot more to it especially in D/L environment.

Now... I have no idea what got implemented in what year, etc.

One thing I know 'I would want' is smooth and fluid cueing... No gaps or jumpy transitions. If I wanted to go back to HUD, there's 'undesignate' and if wanted to designate something again on HMD ... I'd press SCS, long, short.  To sum it up: I would want smoothest , quickest way to acquire, lock and kill with minimal clutter/gaps.

It's just me, so I'll put it to rest.

[oldcrusty]

Before this thing slips into oblivion... Does anyone know how to prevent blanking of D/L contacts donors/AWACS when they creep over the HUD?