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Fly solo without AI co-gunner/pilot


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I really hope we will be able to switch seats in MP. In Hind its okay, since you just divin on to targets and Petrovich guides the missiles, you cant employ them from hover so theres no need to switch. But in Apache its whole different story...

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On 6/5/2021 at 7:25 PM, bies said:

 

 

If it will be AH-64D with Fire Control Radar you technically don't even need another guy to destroy 16 enemy tanks, FCR computer makes up for the gunner:

 

park behind some obstacle showing only FCR -> release 16 automatic guided Hellfire missiles to 16 targets detected identified and prioritized by FCR visible on your MFD -> RTB

 

There are good interviews with RL Apache pilots on YT. AH-64D has avionics designed the way each pilot can do everything with some small exceptions, especially when ORT has been replaced by digital display.

 

Mi-24 - or Desert Storm AH-64A - depends on gunner whole lot more (guiding optical and laser guided missiles, searching new targets with optical devices/FLIR) than AH-64D with FCR, computer and radar Hellfires.

 

It's like Tomcat / Strike Eagle analogy: In analog Tomcat or AH-64A both guys have different responsibilities, functions and cockpits, digital Strike Eagle or AH-64D can by operated by one crew member - second is there to decrease the workload.

 

 

It's not launching in EA with FCR though, right?

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On 10/8/2021 at 7:04 PM, Jaakov said:

I really hope we will be able to switch seats in MP. In Hind its okay, since you just divin on to targets and Petrovich guides the missiles, you cant employ them from hover so theres no need to switch. But in Apache its whole different story...

 

It all depends on how smart they make "George". If he is left at the level of "Petrovich" then I forsee significant problems for people who will want to pilot the Apache alone. Hopefully they give him a contextual menu like HB have done with their "Jester" AI. 

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28 minutes ago, Lurker said:

It all depends on how smart they make "George". If he is left at the level of "Petrovich" then I forsee significant problems for people who will want to pilot the Apache alone. Hopefully they give him a contextual menu like HB have done with their "Jester" AI. 

 

That's not a very useful comparison since ED has stated multiple times that Petrovich is still very much a work in progress and there is a lot of functionality they still haven't added to "him" yet.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

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1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

 

That's not a very useful comparison since ED has stated multiple times that Petrovich is still very much a work in progress and there is a lot of functionality they still haven't added to "him" yet.

 

I disagree. While Petrovich is missing voiceover lines and the ability to autonomously dispense flares/chaff and maybe give out callouts, ED have stated that they will not be making a contextual wheel for Petrovich, and in all fairness he doesn't need one, however I think a contextual wheel will be required for George to become a useful AI co-pilot gunner. 


Edited by Lurker
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1 hour ago, Lurker said:

I disagree. While Petrovich is missing voiceover lines and the ability to autonomously dispense flares/chaff and maybe give out callouts, ED have stated that they will not be making a contextual wheel for Petrovich, and in all fairness he doesn't need one, however I think a contextual wheel will be required for George to become a useful AI co-pilot gunner. 

 

Fair enough.  However I think that is more of a discussion on the style of User Interface you are advocating for, not a required level of functionality for the AH-64D.  The Petrovich AI menu is already contextual based on what mode you have it in and flight condition the Hind is flying.  But comparing the Hind (or the F-14) to the AH-64D is apples and oranges.  The Hind and F-14 have very different crewstations between front and back, with some systems only present in one crewstation versus the other, albeit the Hind has much less complexity in sensors/systems compared to the F-14.  The AH-64D on the other hand has very few functions that can only be done in one seat vs the other.

The most significant of these functions from a gameplay perspective is by far the CPG's TADS, specifically in regards to targeting enemy units and designating for the Hellfire missiles.  I think that as long as the George AI as a gunner enables the human backseater to reliably and efficiently target and engage with a minimal amount of commands, that will be what is needed.  I don't have time to be hovering around in the trees fiddling with a contextual wheel that takes up half my center screen, and requires several wheel commands to go to the appropriate sub-menu, every time I want George to do something.  The most critical jobs in a given seat to be an effective "crewmember" is what they should focus on, since almost everything else could be done from the either seat (ie tuning radios, navigation, employing defensive systems, using the FCR, managing fuel).

 

Plus, I believe ED and Heatblur have significantly different goals when it comes to AI crewmember implementation.  Heatblur tried to make theirs into a synthetic person, with commentary, humor, and a full gambit of damn near anything you could ask your real-life buddy in multicrew to do.  The Petrovich AI seems to be a method to provide an AI assist to allow a singleplayer to play a multicrew module, without a full-on replication of an actual person.

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

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1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

Heatblur tried to make theirs into a synthetic person, with commentary, humor, and a full gambit of damn near anything you could ask your real-life buddy in multicrew to do. 

Except chat with while enroute.  Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying that they should do that.  That would be insane.  But often I find myself talking to him and wishing he could talk back.

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8 minutes ago, Spurts said:

Except chat with while enroute.  Don't get me wrong, I am NOT saying that they should do that.  That would be insane.  But often I find myself talking to him and wishing he could talk back.

 

In my head I'm imagining a young DCS player that sits down at the dinner table and his parents asks "Who were you talking to in your room? We overheard you talking to him about the DCS F-14."
"No, that was just Jester."
"Oh, is that one of your imaginary friends?"
😁

Afterburners are for wussies...hang around the battlefield and dodge tracers like a man.

DCS Rotor-Head

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25 minutes ago, Raptor9 said:

 

In my head I'm imagining a young DCS player that sits down at the dinner table and his parents asks "Who were you talking to in your room? We overheard you talking to him about the DCS F-14."
"No, that was just Jester."
"Oh, is that one of your imaginary friends?"
😁

"No, it's a artificial intelligence with the ability to destroy my enemies"

"I think that's enough computer for tonight" 

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1 hour ago, Raptor9 said:

 

In my head I'm imagining a young DCS player that sits down at the dinner table and his parents asks "Who were you talking to in your room? We overheard you talking to him about the DCS F-14."
"No, that was just Jester."
"Oh, is that one of your imaginary friends?"
😁

 

30 minutes ago, kgillers3 said:

"No, it's a artificial intelligence with the ability to destroy my enemies"

"I think that's enough computer for tonight" 

LMAO!  Good thing I'm not a young DCS player then!

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hands down guys, flying a 2 seated aircraft alone with just an AI on the other seat, is and will always be a compromise. i mean what do you expect from an AI? in the end its just an AI.

 

those aircrafts are meant to be flown with 2 humans, thats whats the main priority is and should be (imho)


Edited by NWGJulian
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4 minutes ago, NWGJulian said:

hands down guys, flying a 2 seated aircraft alone with just an AI on the other seat, is and will always be a compromise. i mean what do you expect from an AI? in the end its just an AI.

 

those aircrafts are meant to be flown with 2 humans, thats whats the main priority is and should be (imho)

 

 

 Why the need for a "priority"?

Quite possibly the SP crowd that plays DCS is larger then the MP crowd, so why should ED prioritize multicrew functionality over AI?

I hope they focus on both simultaneously and equal them in value

 

I for one don't have the luxury of loads of time to find and pair up with a human crew member on those rare occasions that I find time to play. Yet when I do, I'm having a blast with Petrovic and Jester 🙂

 

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vor 6 Minuten schrieb sirrah:

 

 Why the need for a "priority"?

Quite possibly the SP crowd that plays DCS is larger then the MP crowd, so why should ED prioritize multicrew functionality over AI?

I hope they focus on both simultaneously and equal them in value

 

I for one don't have the luxury of loads of time to find and pair up with a human crew member on those rare occasions that I find time to play. Yet when I do, I'm having a blast with Petrovic and Jester 🙂

 

thats just my opinion, nothing more. i think a good working multicrew implementation is way more important that a perfect AI; i think jester and petrovic both work very good, but from what i read here people seem to want „more“. 

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From a standpoint of a causal MP player who doesn't have, or doesn't want a human assistant, it is essential to be able to fly and shoot stuff without unecessary frustration.

 

It would be easier to just control everything directly, by being CPG or hot seating, than using any kind of AI interaction menu.  No matter how elegant the menu is or how smart the AI is, AI on your team always sucks and is always aggravating, in any game.  Could be the best AI in the world with decent behaviors and charming personality, but the honeymoon ends when he's not locking what you want him to lock, or not aiming the gun right, and you die.  Then ragequit, and using a different module without the hassle. 

 

When the F-14 first came out I saw a lot of them in public servers, but now I rarely see any.  When I do see them, the player is visibly struggling with getting the WSO to do what's needed.  

 

I get that a large part of the DCS market likes to roleplay as pilots and whatever, but it's no reason to make the product inaccessible to single players or those with simple hardware.

 

To be clear, if you can't control targeting and flying it is basically unusable for a single player online.  And it does hurt sales and/or disappoint people who get multicrew craft without knowing the control restrictions. 

 

Every other Apache sim I know of has you controlling all flight and targetting functions.  It works fine, it's lore-appropriate for the CPG, and doesn't need to be any more complicated. 

 

Imaging playing a Mario Brothers game where you control movement but need to manipulate a separate menu to shoot a fireball (and the AI shoots it in the wrong time and you die). 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Preendog said:

When the F-14 first came out I saw a lot of them in public servers, but now I rarely see any. When I do see them, the player is visibly struggling with getting the WSO to do what's needed.

 

This has more to do with players not understanding the limits of the aircraft's systems rather than Jester's relative inability. If he can't do something in particular, then chances are the systems are the limiting factor, not him. Once you adjust to the limitations of the aircraft and understand how Jester interacts with them, he works about as well as an average human RIO. For sure, he's no replacement for a skilled RIO, but even that takes some time and effort to learn.

 

1 hour ago, Preendog said:

From a standpoint of a causal MP player who doesn't have, or doesn't want a human assistant, it is essential to be able to fly and shoot stuff without unecessary frustration.

 

1 hour ago, Preendog said:

Every other Apache sim I know of has you controlling all flight and targetting functions.  It works fine, it's lore-appropriate for the CPG, and doesn't need to be any more complicated.

 

The problem isn't really so much control, as you can have all the control you want; the problem is the overall complexity. It has been quite some time since the last serious AH-64 sim and the technical leaps and bounds since then means that we can get that much closer to reality -- and with that reality, the massive workload associated with it. Even the old games had a level of automation assigned to the aircraft, assumed as such for the second crewmember, to reduce the overall frustration. You're going to need an AI of some form to handle things because the helicopter isn't going to be able to hold a perfect hover for you while you're heads down in the front seat. It just becomes a question of how much automation should be present and what should be automated.

 

All the same, I am all for being able to swap seats in multiplayer and hope that it will one day become a reality, but until that day, the current solutions are good enough. This coming from someone who has been spending a lot of time in the Hind and F-14 over the past couple months in multiplayer.

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23 hours ago, NWGJulian said:

hands down guys, flying a 2 seated aircraft alone with just an AI on the other seat, is and will always be a compromise. i mean what do you expect from an AI? in the end its just an AI.

 

those aircrafts are meant to be flown with 2 humans, thats whats the main priority is and should be (imho)

 

Absolutely, you want realistic expeirence, fly those aircraft the way they have been designed.

Otherwise it is just a gamey workaround - needs to be there, but will never work as another human, and is going to be either too efficient at some tasks, or unable to perfrom them at all.

So many modules, so little time...

 

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26 minutes ago, veenee said:

Absolutely, you want realistic expeirence, fly those aircraft the way they have been designed.

Otherwise it is just a gamey workaround - needs to be there, but will never work as another human, and is going to be either too efficient at some tasks, or unable to perfrom them at all.

depending on who the copilot is maybe ai is more efficient 🤷‍♂️


Edited by kgillers3
grammar. important
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i would like my pilot to be prince harry.

101344731-159839261.jpg?v=1532564550

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