M71 efficiency

[Spirale]

Hi,

 

In DCS nowadays,

a bomb must hit the objective to destroy it or even incapacitate it.

When a bomb hits next to a truck, it doesn't even move

It's very frustrating...

this problem has been around for years. As much as this problem does not impact aircraft equipped with guided bombs, 

for the Viggen it is a handicap.

 

if this issue were fixed, the Viggen would shine even more in combat zones.

I assume that this code is ED's property 

but it would be nice if the M71s got even more terrible: 

16 x M71 that hit, it must be windy ^^

Thx for you futur replies

Edited April 17, 2021 by Spirale

[Foka1]

23 hours ago, Spirale said:

Hi,

 

In DCS nowadays,

a bomb must hit the objective to destroy it or even incapacitate it.

When a bomb hits next to a truck, it doesn't even move

It's very frustrating...

this problem has been around for years. As much as this problem does not impact aircraft equipped with guided bombs, 

for the Viggen it is a handicap.

 

if this issue were fixed, the Viggen would shine even more in combat zones.

I assume that this code is ED's property 

but it would be nice if the M71s got even more terrible: 

16 x M71 that hit, it must be windy ^^

Thx for you futur replies

 

Wepom effect on DCS are pretty close if we are talking explosion radius.

 

People often just lacking knowledge on how ita done in DCS and even what is real deal in real life and ask for hollywood effects.

 

The perception of that is created because of several things, but main are:

 

1) DCS is not modeling fragments and shrapnell coming out of bomb

 

2) DCS vehicles does not have extensive damage model. Although they do react to certain damage levels and they have armor zones

[Spirale]

you misunderstood me and I misspoke.

I do not compare the weapons between them but the fact that the direct damage benefits certain bombs( JDAM for ex).

I just say it's hard to do a max damage in Viggen in one pass over a max targets because DCS is not modeling fragments and shrapnell coming out of bomb .

 

It's a big disadvantage for the Viggen compare to an F16/18 which can drop a JDAM's 20nm away from the same targets, and this JDAM's will damage all targets...

 

The Viggen is my favorite module, i love it, that's the reason why i write "here".

Edited April 17, 2021 by Spirale

[TLTeo]

You're comparing apples to oranges though. Obviously a modern precision guided weapon is more accurate and deadly than an unguided one developed 40 years earlier. A better comparison weapon is the Mk-82, and honestly, there's not much difference between a bunch of those and a bunch of M71s hitting their target.

[Spirale]

Yes, but what is the point if both Mh82 and M71 are ineffective against multiples targets? The blast radius is non existant and it induces direct hits from this "old" bombs to be effectives.

It's a pity for a plane like the Viggen and 100nm navigation @ tree top level. Just my thoughts

[Northstar98]

Pretty sure the problem here is as follows:

1. A lack of fragmentation modelling (before the 2.7 update you could inspect the various .lua files containing the definitions for warheads, to approximate fragmentation they just boosted the warhead power (which I think is explosive mass in TNT equivalent) to the total warhead mass. Sometimes they would boost the warhead 'power' by a larger degree in for instance AA missiles with large proximity fuse ranges.
2. A very crude damage model for vehicles, which for the most part is just a simple health bar. Some vehicles do divide their hitboxes into zones, but this is to just approximate armour thickness.

These are both problems that affect basically everything in DCS.

 

Bear in mind that the M/71 bombs are quite a bit smaller than Mk 82s; the M/71 has about 40kg of TNT equivalent, compared to about 90kg of TNT equivalent in the Mk 82 (and by extension the GBU-12/38/54), the Viggen just plasters an area with them in one pass.

Edited April 20, 2021 by Northstar98

[LazyBoot]

possibly relevant:

 

[TLTeo]

7 hours ago, Spirale said:

Yes, but what is the point if both Mh82 and M71 are ineffective against multiples targets? The blast radius is non existant and it induces direct hits from this "old" bombs to be effectives.

It's a pity for a plane like the Viggen and 100nm navigation @ tree top level. Just my thoughts

I mean, if you're going for targets that are too hard to kill with M71s...bring something else? It's not like the Viggen is limited in its payloads. RB-75s (and 75Ts especially), BK-90s and to some extent ARAKs and RB-05s do a perfectly fine job of taking out most fortified targets.

 

But yeah, the M71 being roughly half the size of a Mk82 doesn't help when trying to kill hardened targets. The best comparison would be the Mk 81 but afaik no module in DCS carries it. But again, there's plenty of ways to avoid that issue.

[Spirale]

I mean "blast radius": no concern for fortified targets...

I do not compare MK82 and M71, both suffer the same issue: DCS is not modeling fragments and shrapnell coming out of bomb  = no proper blast radius.

 

So now you put 16 simple trucks on a runway, rather grouped, no lined up. No armored vehicules, just simple trucks for transport.

You do your fast pass with the Viggen and drop your 16 M71: do you believe that each M71 went directly on a truck and destroyed it?...No.

Some trucks remained undamaged = cause is they is no blast radius and it's a pity really.

Same with Mk82 and a ...say...F16 if you want.

 

You got the point when you say " It's not like the Viggen is limited in its payloads. RB-75s (and 75Ts especially), BK-90s and to some extent ARAKs and RB-05s do a perfectly fine job of taking out most fortified targets".

 

Th all subject of this topic is there is no blast radius in DCS and the Viggen struggle, often, to destroy with enough efficiency some numerous targets with the silmple M71.

I fly this bird since the release, nearly exclusively ( some flights with F14 and Mirage though), the Viggen is very very efficient but sometimes, regards to this issu , it's frustrating to RTB with no 100% result with M71.

Obvously the same parked trucks will be blasted with BK90 ;)

[Noctrach]

Idk man, it's known that DCS models no fragmentation so you'll always have some issues with area attacks on soft targets with stuff like HE rounds or unguided rockets. Then there is the simplified damage model adding another bit on top.

 

But M/71 is one of the least "affected" I would say...

 

The scenario you describe results in complete annihilation with a level release from 350m.

 

Even against similarly grouped BMP-1s, the destruction is quite severe.

Not bad for 120kg bombs.

 

It only starts getting weird when you start involving T-55s and the like, but only because they can't be "mission-killed" through detracking/optics destruction etc.

 

And any weapon that can do this to a conga line of T-72s is fine until we get a better damage model

 

Edited April 18, 2021 by Noctrach

[Machalot]

5 hours ago, Noctrach said:

Idk man, it's known that DCS models no fragmentation so you'll always have some issues with area attacks on soft targets with stuff like HE rounds or unguided rockets. Then there is the simplified damage model adding another bit on top.

 

But M/71 is one of the least "affected" I would say...

 

The scenario you describe results in complete annihilation with a level release from 350m.

 

Even against similarly grouped BMP-1s, the destruction is quite severe.

Not bad for 120kg bombs.

 

It only starts getting weird when you start involving T-55s and the like, but only because they can't be "mission-killed" through detracking/optics destruction etc.

 

And any weapon that can do this to a conga line of T-72s is fine until we get a better damage model

 

 

Hmm, you get different results than I do.  Even with the Bk90, I have landed two anti-armor Bk90s directly on center of a group of 4-5 vehicles (such as an SA-15 setup and some trucks) and had 2-3 of the vehicles survive undamaged.

[Spirale]

53 minutes ago, Machalot said:

Hmm, you get different results than I do.  Even with the Bk90, I have landed two anti-armor Bk90s directly on center of a group of 4-5 vehicles (such as an SA-15 setup and some trucks) and had 2-3 of the vehicles survive undamaged.

Thx Machalot, same result here

[Spirale]

It's me or vehicules seem to be more  blast sensitive after the 2.7 patch? Or bombs more powerfull?

 

I did some test and yes no blast radius ( 2+ trucks are "alive")  BUT more trucks are hit....

Edited April 18, 2021 by Spirale

[Noctrach]

1 hour ago, Machalot said:

Hmm, you get different results than I do.  Even with the Bk90, I have landed two anti-armor Bk90s directly on center of a group of 4-5 vehicles (such as an SA-15 setup and some trucks) and had 2-3 of the vehicles survive undamaged.

I mean even with perfect damage modeling sometimes a vehicle will just get lucky.

The weaknesses of the current modeling have been discussed at length, even in this thread.

2*BK-90-MJ2 will dispense 48 bomblets, if these land within "armor penetration range" it does a lot of damage. If they don't, they do no damage. So it's just a matter of statistics.

 

Honestly, it still consistently takes out a good chunk of the area even with DCS's flaws.

Just make sure you use the right variants, for 2x BK-90:

• Mixed targets, use the MJ1-MJ2 for a total of 24 HEAT and 72 HE-frag bomblets
• Hard targets, use the MJ2 for a total of 48 HEAT bomblets
• Soft targets, use the MJ1 for a total of 144 HE-frag bomblets

Make sure you set the dispersal properly for target area (f1000 for long, 2000 for wide, 3000 for compact)

 

Naturally you shouldn't be expecting to lay waste to a group of tanks, you'll take out 1-3 at most.

IFVs will get damaged or killed pretty reliably.

Trucks will pretty much get annihilated.

 

SAM sites are affected the worst by the simple modeling, but if want to guarantee it to die, bring a wingman.

4x BK-90 MJ1 wide area... won't leave much standing.

 

As @P61 says, don't expect Hollywood effects and temper your expectations for effect on armor to be quite a bit more binary than realistic.

 

Do your mission planning and the Viggen's weapons (ARAK, M/71, BK-90, RB-05) will have good effects.

[dorianR666]

in my experience, viggen's bombs and rockets are more powerful than equivalents in other modules. (heavier) mk82s seem pathetic in comparison.

 

might be a placebo, i havent looked into the Lua weapon database to prove it with numbers.

[Northstar98]

7 hours ago, dorianR666 said:

in my experience, viggen's bombs and rockets are more powerful than equivalents in other modules. (heavier) mk82s seem pathetic in comparison.

 

In what way? The only thing I've really noticed with regards to this is more due to the fact that the Viggen plasters an area with a fairly high number of munitions, meaning you're more likely to score kills with the current damage model.

 

Quote

might be a placebo, i havent looked into the Lua weapon database to prove it with numbers.

 

In the Weapons.lua file for the Viggen (CoreMods -> aircraft -> AJS37 -> Entry), the M/71 at least is defined as a simple warhead with a 'power' of 125kg (I'm pretty sure this should be TNT equivalent, the real bomb has about 40kg but DCS usually buffs the value to approximate fragmentation), and a calibre of 450mm.

 

No idea what the Mk82 is like in DCS as the .lua files have been hidden with the 2.7 update.

 

Here's how the warhead for the SHU-70 (HE) rockets are defined:

 

Spoiler

warhead	=
	{
		mass	= 21.6,-- HE 21.6, HEAT 19.7
		expl_mass = 21.6,--0.285, HE warhead 21.6, HEAT 5.0
		other_factors = { 2.0, 2.5, 2.5},--{ 1.0, 0.5, 0.5},
		concrete_factors = { 0.8, 0.8, 0.8},--{ 1.0, 0.5, 0.1},
		concrete_obj_factor = 0.8,
		obj_factors = { 1.5, 1.5},--{ 1.0, 1.0},
		cumulative_factor= 2.0,
		cumulative_thickness = 0.6,
		piercing_mass			= 20.0,
	},

 

 

And here's how the warhead for PSHU-70 (AP) rockets are defined:

 

Spoiler

warhead	=
	{
		mass	= 19.7,-- HE 21.6, HEAT 19.7
		expl_mass = 19.7,--0.285, HE warhead 21.6, HEAT 5.0
		other_factors = { 2.0, 2.5, 2.5},--{ 1.0, 0.5, 0.5},
		concrete_factors = { 1.5, 0.8, 0.8},--{ 1.0, 0.5, 0.1},
		concrete_obj_factor = 0.8,
		obj_factors = { 1.5, 1.5},--{ 1.0, 1.0},
		cumulative_factor= 2.0,
		cumulative_thickness = 0.6,
		piercing_mass			= 40.0,
	},

 

 

Edited April 20, 2021 by Northstar98

[dorianR666]

14 hours ago, Northstar98 said:

No idea what the Mk82 is like in DCS as the .lua files have been hidden with the 2.7 update.

ED said they might reopen some of the lua files in future updates.

i will check the numbers and report back here when that happens.

 

[currenthill]

The Mk82 looks like this:

 

warheads["Mk_82"] = simple_warhead(180.0); -- Explosive 89 kg + fragments bonus