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Weaker Radar


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On 4/21/2021 at 5:22 AM, Beamscanner said:

Max range would be with HPRF.

 

HPRF waveforms don't use pulse compression. MPRF waveforms do, but not HPRF...

 

F-16 doesn't have HPRF in RWS/TWS.. Only MPRF. That alone means that the integration time and average power is much higher in the F-18.

 

 

Interesting stuff as always, B-Scanner. 👍

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If it brings us toward more realism that's a good thing.

 

However, it is a bit frustrating to update one plane at the time. Now the Hornet looks ridiculous against the F-16 or the JF-17 which really doesn't make sense. 

 

Physics should be the same for all modules so we shouldn't see this kind of inexplicable disparities 

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On 4/21/2021 at 4:11 PM, DLEGION said:

just to know... is normal that with latest patch i was able to detect (and few secs later also finally lock) two mig29 flying hot at 36000 feet that i was able to see way before ?
hornet radar get a lock like 5 miles more far that an aim120 radar ?
is that normal ? 

Yes, the APG-73 was described IRL as being outranged by the AMRAAM, something that was fixed by the APG-79

 

And just for the record, the F-16s is definitely overperforming, but as far as the JFs... Its quoted as having a lookup detection range of 105km vs 5m^2, according to this brochure, and thats exactly how it is in game:

KLJ7_1.jpg

Ill grant i'm no RF expert, and perhaps 105 km is absurd the JF radar, but its definitely not a number deka pulled out of thin air.


Edited by dundun92

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Just now, DLEGION said:

is  apg-73 inferior to apg-65 ?

No

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ahh ok, tahnks. so if i may ask, where are numbers taken ?
because for example i found this:  https://apps.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a142103.pdf
that in the middle states that APG-65 has a range from 200 feet to 160nm.  
now even knowing that maximum is theorical against a huge RCS target, still i fatigue to belive it cant see a huge cargo plane at 55 miles, and that suddenly at 40nm all fighters appear, being them different size and rcs.
plus considering this, i always heard F18 radar was very good , even better than F15 of its times,  plus small radars like F16, or soviet ones are all far superior in DCS.
there are many points i dont understand... i would appreciate if you help me understand, thanks.  

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5 minutes ago, DLEGION said:

even better than F15 of its times

No. It never was, and wont be. Thats just physics, and im not aware of any sources showing otherwise. The F-15 has always had one of the best radars.

 

5 minutes ago, DLEGION said:

that in the middle states that APG-65 has a range from 200 feet to 160nm.  

Thats the absolute limits, not against any specific target. E.g, you cant get the display range past 160nm, nor does it work properly inside 200ft. It does not mean any more than that.

On that note, we have sources showing the APG-65 sees a fighter sized target (roughly 4m^2) at 45nm. Which is right around where our APG-73 sees. So, while it may be a tad bit low, its definitely quite reasonable.

5 minutes ago, DLEGION said:

and that suddenly at 40nm all fighters appear, being them different size and rcs.

Also not true. RCS does affect detection range in DCS. And the range for 5.5m^2 is 48nm rn for hot, coalt.

 

5 minutes ago, DLEGION said:

plus small radars like F16, or soviet ones are all far superior in DCS.

F-16's is OP and will be fixed, but the Su-27 literally does have a better radar IRL


Edited by dundun92
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just made some tests... i have all the tacviews if anyone interested.
same exact condistions (distance, altitude ecc...), all hot and using Hi (should be better than hi/med interleaved, right ?)
i popped 3 flares as soon as F18 radar detected a contact (many planes almost instantly jammed it, but thats another story)
F14b, F15c, F16cm 50, M2000, mig29s, su27, mig31, mig23mld
all this were spotted by F18 radar exactly in 45-43 miles range, discrepancy probably due to 6 bars scan and 60° azimuth delay
so lets say all in 44nm range , be it a small mig23 or f16, or a larger su27 or f15 (i dont know their RCS)
with big cargo planes i had:
C17a     at 67nm
IL72md at 77nm 
b52h     at 74nm
someone can confirm if this numbers are correct ? why 44nm for all fighters ? 
so 160nm declared by apg65 is pure teorical, since even biggest planes are detected at less than half the max range
.... and F18c have an apg73, that should be better than apg65, right ?


Edited by DLEGION
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My two cents is I had a group of 4 IL-76 co-alt flanking at 50nm with no joy for RWS 80deg/4bar. Locked him after switch to 20deg/4bar. Keep then locked even back to 80deg.
It wouldn't hurt to extra tune and do some fixes to radar.

 

This case the target was presented with sky in background, so the radar should have no problems to see him (no worth adding that IL-76 is a big bird).


Edited by leon737
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Posted (edited)

if we assume that the hornet radar is now correct and then use that as a baseline for the viper radar adjustment, would that produce really ridiculously close range for the viper ?
asking cos it might be a good test for seeing if the radar perf was overcorrected 


Edited by Spectre1-1
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7 minutes ago, Spectre1-1 said:

if we assume that the hornet radar is now correct and then use that as a baseline for the viper radar adjustment, would that produce really ridiculously close range for the viper ?
asking cos it might be a good test for seeing if the radar perf was overcorrected 

 

Yes, 39nm vs 5m^2 (the RL APG-68(V)5 detection range) is indeed pretty short, its why fighters like the F-14/15 exist. There was no serious "overcorrection" for the F-18. Maybe ita a tad bit too low, ill grant that, but its well within the ballpark.

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On 4/15/2021 at 5:50 AM, nighthawk2174 said:

Yeah before hand it was overperforming, those are the kind of detection ranges the F15's radar should be getting.  Although tbf an issue with this is that many aircrafts RCS values are too low.  So if that is ever fixed it'll mitigate this somewhat against larger RCS targets like the F15/SU27/F14/MIG29, 12-15m^2/16-20m^2/12-15m^2/20-25m^2 range respectively instead of the 5'ish(or lower) they are now.

 

This.

 

In DCS the F-16 RCS is set 4m² and Su-27 only at 5.5m² (F-15C at 5m²). Big fighters have too low RCS...
F-16C and JF-17 seem to be over-performing.

And everybody who are quoting open source radar range:

these are the best figures of the radar. The range depends on radar setting. You will have a better range in 1 line 20° scan than 4 lines 120° scan or even 80° scan.
And this is typically the 1 line & narrow scan range that you get in open source publications...

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17 hours ago, jojo said:

You will have a better range in 1 line 20° scan than 4 lines 120° scan or even 80° scan.
And this is typically the 1 line & narrow scan range that you get in open source publications...

Not really.. 

 

You dont get better range with a narrow scan IRL. You get more chances to 'roll the dice' as it were. 

 

This is a misconception that I've heard real pilots say as well. 

 

Unlike DCS, which has a black and white detection range, real life targets have a constantly fluctuating RCS. Depending on moment to moment geometries that light follows, the detection range against a target will too fluctuate. Typically the range provided by the manufacturer is the 50% probability of detection (Pd) aginst a Xm2 target. (ie the average detection range against an Xm2 target). 

 

A good example would be if a radar was advertised to have a 50 nmi detection range against a 5m2 target. What this really means is that there is a 50% probability that the radar will detect a 5m2 target at 50nmi (under optimal conditions as well; ie look-up/head-on/HPRF). 

 

In this example the radar would likely have 90% Pd at ~40nmi and ~10% at 60nmi.

 

A smaller scan doesn't change your output power, duty cycle, gain, receiver sensitivity, or # of pulses integrated. It just means that if the fluctuating geometries weren't in your favor, scanning over the target again and again; you may get lucky with a moment of high reflectivity.

 

 

 

Back on the topic of DCS: 

Since DCS uses black and white detection ranges (ie they don't use probabilities; 100% or nothing) than they should be using ranges less than the advertised 50% ranges provided by manufacturers. (ie if Raytheon said that the APG-73 could see a fighter sized target 50 nmi away. DCS should use 40 nmi, since Raytheon is talking about 50% Pd while DCS is using 100%)

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Beamscanner said:

Not really.. 

 

You dont get better range with a narrow scan IRL. You get more chances to 'roll the dice' as it were. 

 

This is a misconception that I've heard real pilots say as well. 

 

Unlike DCS, which has a black and white detection range, real life targets have a constantly fluctuating RCS. Depending on moment to moment geometries that light follows, the detection range against a target will too fluctuate. Typically the range provided by the manufacturer is the 50% probability of detection (Pd) aginst a Xm2 target. (ie the average detection range against an Xm2 target). 

 

A good example would be if a radar was advertised to have a 50 nmi detection range against a 5m2 target. What this really means is that there is a 50% probability that the radar will detect a 5m2 target at 50nmi (under optimal conditions as well; ie look-up/head-on/HPRF). 

 

In this example the radar would likely have 90% Pd at ~40nmi and ~10% at 60nmi.

 

A smaller scan doesn't change your output power, duty cycle, gain, receiver sensitivity, or # of pulses integrated. It just means that if the fluctuating geometries weren't in your favor, scanning over the target again and again; you may get lucky with a moment of high reflectivity.

 

 

 

Back on the topic of DCS: 

Since DCS uses black and white detection ranges (ie they don't use probabilities; 100% or nothing) than they should be using ranges less than the advertised 50% ranges provided by manufacturers. (ie if Raytheon said that the APG-73 could see a fighter sized target 50 nmi away. DCS should use 40 nmi, since Raytheon is talking about 50% Pd while DCS is using 100%)

 

Yes true, probability of detection.

But the problem still is "what is a fighter size target ?".

 

Because it's usually a 5m2 and this isn't representative of a loaded F-15 F-14 or Su-27 🙄

 

As it is right now, there are huge inconsistencies between modules...


Edited by jojo

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On 4/15/2021 at 9:20 AM, LaFleur said:

Yes. The F-16s radar is greatly overperforming. Granted the F-18s radar is about 40% more powerful than the F-16s one, and it has a larger dish, the F-18 should have the upper hand.


BUT, in DCS the F-16 is astronomically better. Here is a test performed by u/_Quaggles on reddit which indicates this issue:

qw96wzj4x7t61.png

And how come that F-14`s radar is so damn better then the rest? And its the oldest of all, except F-5 and Mig-21.

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2 minutes ago, mitja_bonca said:

And how come that F-14`s radar is so damn better then the rest? And its the oldest of all, except F-5 and Mig-21.

 

It's got a freaking large radar dish and powerful emitter. Old does not mean weak, by necessity.

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On 4/28/2021 at 2:13 PM, dundun92 said:

Ill grant i'm no RF expert, and perhaps 105 km is absurd the JF radar, but its definitely not a number deka pulled out of thin air.

The brochure doesn't specify the radar mode though, it could easily refer to VS (which has longer range than RWS). Having said that, Deka have said they are not looking at adjusting the Jeff's radar range because it matches whatever numbers they have: https://forums.eagle.ru/topic/270451-radar-readjustment/

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3 hours ago, mitja_bonca said:

And how come that F-14`s radar is so damn better then the rest? And its the oldest of all, except F-5 and Mig-21.

Because it has a huge dish and high peak power. If it had modern processing it would be even better.

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Posted (edited)

1. Do we know actual numbers of the RCS for all the aircrafts in DCS?

I found some data, but seem to be inaccurate for F-14 and F-15 (25m2) and Su-27 (15m2), is that true? Where the hack they have such huge frontal surface?

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/world/stealth-aircraft-rcs.htm

Here is another great read about RCS: 

https://www.quora.com/Which-4-4-5th-generation-fighter-aircraft-has-the-least-RCS-radar-cross-section

 

2.What about RCS from different angles of the specific aircraft in DCS? All these numbers are only from the front (so hot aspect). How about from the side, rear, or when flanking?


Edited by mitja_bonca
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