How important is a pair of rudder pedals

[Dragon1-1]

It's not really middle position (this being force trim, they stay in position you trim them to), but yeah, the forces are zeroed out and you can take your feet off them. Helicopters aren't really suited for hands-off flying, unless you've got a full-blown autopilot like the Mi-8, but in level flight, as long as you're in trim you should be pretty much set.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Dragon1-1

[Furlow]

1 minute ago, Dragon1-1 said:

It's not really middle position (this being force trim, they stay in position you trim them to), but yeah, the forces are zeroed out and you can take your feet off them. In fact, the Mi-8 has sensors to detect when you put your feed on the pedals, which disengages the yaw autopilot, and I wouldn't be surprised if there was something like that on the Hind, too. Also, autopilot.

Thats why removing the spring is a handy mod, you just set the pedals for long flights and take your feet off. Id say its a far easier and preferable route than having to trim center returning pedals.

[Dragon1-1]

It's not realistic either, because then you get no force on them. IRL, there are forces, and they need to be trimmed out. IMO, return to center (but without center detent, a much harder thing to find) is a better solution, in terms of control precision.

[Furlow]

Just now, Dragon1-1 said:

 return to center but without center detent

Yeah that would be a thing to find. Fair enough I stand corrected, its more realistic to have the pedals neutral most of the time then. Dunno how you could make that smooth though.

[Dragon1-1]

Make your own. I did just that with the excellent Simchair IV design, and they appear to work pretty well. Also, it comes with a cyclic with no center detent and a proper collective. It's even got hardware force trim. I think there's exactly one commercial helo rig that matches its capabilities. 

[Furlow]

Nah I went through a lot of misery to find what worked for me lol. Right now Im on no spring CHs that i just replaced the pot in, plus copious amounts of nyogel 767a, a DIY floor cyclic and with any luck in a couple of weeks I'll have one of K-51s collectives to replace the throttles. Im not changing again for a while.

8 minutes ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Simchair IV

Dude, why would you even send that to me, do you know how much 3d printers are? And you're making me go buy one just so I can sit in a snazzy office chair with options? 

 

God damn you to hell for what youve done. My marriage is hanging by a thread here and this will be the scissors.

 

Just you wait and see.

[Dragon1-1]

Worse, it's not even a snazzy chair, you'll be sitting on a crappy Ikea stool furnished with some pillows. But hey, that's kind of realistic, too. Real aircraft usually don't have the most comfortable seats in the world...

 

I have to say, though, that discounting the cost of the printer, the whole thing is actually rather cheap, most of the hardware that's not printed can be bought from China or a normal hardware store. The cyclic stick will likely need an upgrade for the Hind, since it's kinda short on buttons, but that's it.

Edited April 16, 2021 by Dragon1-1

[Furlow]

Im going to have to make a move on this quickly to see how viable it is before my collective is ready. Appreciate the heads up, I didnt even know this thing existed.

[molevitch]

This video sums up and demonstrates the trim functions of the Mi-24. 
 

 

Pedals do not stay centred in flight, nor does the cyclic, nor collective. The trim system is there to alleviate strain on the pilot and hold the controllers mechanically in position, using hydraulics and electro-magnets. This is to enable the helicopter to be flown against cross-winds to prevent excess drift, to balance all the opposing forces of torque between the main rotor, the tail rotor, inertia, wind-resistance and meteorological influences, and to relieve the muscular tension of the Pilot’s arms and legs, and to leave him also hands free (on occasion) to operate and interact with other equipment in the cockpit.

In a trimmed state, the pilot still has some authority over the controllers to make adjustments to flight as necessary, without compromising trim, but also will use multiple changes and corrections to trimming during flight.

 

In DCS, to simulate these systems, the programmers have accommodated standard flight sim controllers, joysticks and pedals, whose designs generally have a recentering spring. Force FeedBack sticks like the old MS Sidewinder series do a great job in DCS of emulating this cyclic trim. Some DCS pit enthusiasts customise their pedals by removing the centering spring and adding a steering damper to achieve pedal trim.

 

In the Mi-8 and the 24 (and other) helicopters, the pedals have switches, so as you push with the feet, the switch can activate a motorised actuator to turn the pedal position in a controlled mechanical way. When the foot pressure is removed, the motor stops and holds the pedals trimmed. This activation can be turned off and a damper applied instead to allow free movement of the pedals without motorised control.

 

 

Edited April 17, 2021 by molevitch

[StevanJ]

5 hours ago, molevitch said:

This video sums up and demonstrates the trim functions of the Mi-24. 
 

 

Pedals do not stay centred in flight, nor does the cyclic, nor collective. The trim system is there to alleviate strain on the pilot and hold the controllers mechanically in position, using hydraulics and electro-magnets. This is to enable the helicopter to be flown against cross-winds to prevent excess drift, to balance all the opposing forces of torque between the main rotor, the tail rotor, inertia, wind-resistance and meteorological influences, and to relieve the muscular tension of the Pilot’s arms and legs, and to leave him also hands free (on occasion) to operate and interact with other equipment in the cockpit.

In a trimmed state, the pilot still has some authority over the controllers to make adjustments to flight as necessary, without compromising trim, but also will use multiple changes and corrections to trimming during flight.

 

In DCS, to simulate these systems, the programmers have accommodated standard flight sim controllers, joysticks and pedals, whose designs generally have a recentering spring. Force FeedBack sticks like the old MS Sidewinder series do a great job in DCS of emulating this cyclic trim. Some DCS pit enthusiasts customise their pedals by removing the centering spring and adding a steering damper to achieve pedal trim.

 

In the Mi-8 and the 24 (and other) helicopters, the pedals have switches, so as you push with the feet, the switch can activate a motorised actuator to turn the pedal position in a controlled mechanical way. When the foot pressure is removed, the motor stops and holds the pedals trimmed. This activation can be turned off and a damper applied instead to allow free movement of the pedals without motorised control.

 

 

 

 

What a great insight!

thanks.

[Lurker]

I would say that even though you "can" fly without them, it's a completely different ballgame with rudder pedals. Probably the most important peripheral for helicopters after the joystick/cyclic.

[molevitch]

40 minutes ago, Lurker said:

I would say that even though you "can" fly without them, it's a completely different ballgame with rudder pedals. Probably the most important peripheral for helicopters after the joystick/cyclic.

Having the full set, cyclic/collective/pedals, makes it both more like flying a helicopter and a lot more fun to do.

 

[Clogger]

I would say unless there is a physical reason to why you can not operate pedals then yes they are a must have (but yes you can fly helos with out them) As others have mentioned you are spending quite a bit already for a module so you might as well make the experience as best as possible and they will add extra immersion in fixed wing planes as well so it's not like a one trick pony purchase. 

 

Pedal choice is a tricky one, I have the VKB's : https://flightsimcontrols.com/product/vkb-sim-t-rudder-pedals-mk-iv-2/\

 

Pro's:

They act in a similar manner to helo pedals.

You can remove the centre detent. (important for helos)

You can adjust the spring tension to suit

As they work by pressing down on the pedals, when sat on a wheeled chair you don't get pushed back or twist in your chair. (something I see some users gripe about on other pedals)

Amazing build quality

 

Cons's:

They don't have physical toe breaks (not an issue for helos) but toe breaks can be handy for fixed wing especially warbirds.

They aint cheap (but are priced competitively IMHO)

 

Not saying the VKB's are the best, there are many other great sets of pedals but for helo's they are a good choice and also work great for fixed wing. 

[Fri13]

55 minutes ago, Clogger said:

Cons's:

They don't have physical toe breaks (not an issue for helos) but toe breaks can be handy for fixed wing especially warbirds.

They aint cheap (but are priced competitively IMHO)

 

Everything above that is true. 

And need to say that loss of toe brakes is not a problem for other aircraft as they can be enabled so pedals works as toe brakes for taxiing.

 

And I don't think 200 € for excellent ones is not much to ask, considering that now even CH pedals can cost 270 € then the VKB are cheap.

 

55 minutes ago, Clogger said:

Not saying the VKB's are the best, there are many other great sets of pedals but for helo's they are a good choice and also work great for fixed wing. 

 

Well, they are best for helos if not going for far more expensive complete setups.

 

As helicopters benefit a lot more about precise and small movements, the lack of linear movement from hips makes VKB more anjoyable options.

 

But just to buy these to buy Mi-24P and fly it, I don't see it as first choice as twist stick should be good starting point even when very limited.

 

 

[lmp]

You should be able to fly the thing with just a half decent joystick. Good rudder pedals will help but so will a good throttle/collective. In fact, I'd say if you have just a stick, the lack of a good throttle with a long throw and smooth, precise action will hold you back at least as much as having no pedals.

 

I'd say, if you're worried whether you'll be able to have fun with the kit you have, you'll be fine.

 

If you're thinking what to buy to improve your experience, pedals are great, but so is a separate throttle - and it's more useful if you fly fixed wings. However the most important thing is your stick. Make sure it's precise and needs no deadzones. I've always seen the biggest difference when I upgraded my stick.

[Mr.Scar]

I do not have rudder pedals, but I do use the FCS Thrustmaster 16000 with Stick and Throttle. For Helos i use the "pedal" axis on the throttle instead the twist on the stick, and for me it works like a charm.

 

1. For the Huey, I use the pedals axis quite constantly since it is a light frame, but it does get the job done

2. For the Mi-8 after learning the Huey i think it is even easier since the Hip is a very stable platform once it gets rolling. I would not say it is that pedal dependant as the Huey is and the Hip is much more "stamina friendly" + the Zen aspect. 

 

Now the reason i mention it is that the Hip has the same or a very similar flight stabilization system as the Mi-24 does (correct me if I am wrong, i take it from the top of my head now). I dont remember the technical terms for that so sorry, but to put it blunt its the thing that makes flying the heli easier than the huey. At least for me.

 

So all in all, separate controller in form of the pedals is always a great idea, but i think that if you like how the Hip (if you own it that is) handles with your current setup i think you will be satisfied with the Mi-24 aswell.

 

Just my few cents.

Edited April 18, 2021 by Mr.Scar

[Wild one]

I bought DCS just for choppers, even though I now own quite a few other modules.  My first two purchases were the Ka-50 and the Huey.  I got them both for $27 back in 2015.  I could fly the KA-50 with my CH Pedals, but that was all heads down auto pilot.  The Huey, I was not so great at.  I busted the toe brake landing my BF-109 after about a year of getting them pedals, and decided those pedals were not worth the money to replace them.  Instead I bought the MFG Crosswinds.  In my opinion they are worth the money, and even more so they are worth the 4 months it took for me to get them shipped.  After having them 5 years I am sure I'll never need to buy another set of pedals again.  As for the Huey, she became a sweet module to fly.  I don't know how much rudder precision is going to be needed to fly the Hind properly, but it can't hurt to have good pedals.

Edited April 25, 2021 by Wild one

[Hiob]

On 4/16/2021 at 6:10 PM, Dragon1-1 said:

 

Now, in a real helicopter, their positions aren't zeroed out, but forces are. However, this isn't doable without force feedback, and I don't know of any pedals that support it. 

I made a quick release for the centering spring on my crosswind pedals. I also installed the damping kit provided by mfg.

For fixed wing aircraft, I fly with the spring, for rotorcraft I fly without it. So the pedals will stay wherever I want them to. 

[Dragon1-1]

Note that you trade one unrealistic thing for the other in that setup. You lose all pedal forces, which is also not the case with the real helo. Yes, it's a viable way of doing this, but for a truly realistic experience, a (likely DIY) force feedback solution would be required.

[Hiob]

1 hour ago, Dragon1-1 said:

Note that you trade one unrealistic thing for the other in that setup. You lose all pedal forces...

Obviously, but I think you missed that my pedals are equipped with a adjustable damper.

So I have (adjustable) resistance to pedal movement but no self-centering force.

Which in my humble opinion is as good as it gets for rotorcraft and without a ffb-solution.

 

Edited April 25, 2021 by Hiob

[Deran]

What always kind of bothered me was: Which DCS moduled Helicopters have Rudder trim in real life though?

[AlphaOneSix]

44 minutes ago, Deran said:

What always kind of bothered me was: Which DCS moduled Helicopters have Rudder trim in real life though?

 

If by "trim" you mean a spring centering force where the center can be moved to any point in the pedal axis, then all of them have it.

[rayrayblues]

On 4/18/2021 at 4:13 AM, Mr.Scar said:

I do not have rudder pedals, but I do use the FCS Thrustmaster 16000 with Stick and Throttle. For Helos i use the "pedal" axis on the throttle instead the twist on the stick, and for me it works like a charm.

 

Me too.

I have mobility issues and the rocker on the throttle works very well for me. I have the TM HOTAS X and the rocker gives me the very precise control

that my feet could not. If you are on a budget, HOTAS's like these can be an affordable option.

 

[Dezmond]

1 minute ago, AlphaOneSix said:

 

If by "trim" you mean a spring centering force where the center can be moved to any point in the pedal axis, then all of them have it.

 

The Mi-8 manual implies that pushing the trim button on the stick in the actual aircraft removes all cantering forces from the... collective, cyclic and pedals. And that they specifically tilted the rotor so the cyclic would be centred in cruising. That all seems like a more primitive way of doing it.

[AlphaOneSix]

Many (most?) helicopters have tilted rotor systems, assuming that you are referring to a forward tilt of the rotor mast relative to the aircraft waterline, which is what the Mi-8 has.

 

On the Mi-8, the trimmer button on the cyclic removes the centering force for the cyclic and the pedals. The collective has it's own button for removing the friction force. The collective doesn't have centering springs. I don't know of any aircraft where the collective has a centering spring...they typically just have an adjustable friction force to hold them in place, and the friction force can usually be removed with a force trim release button.

 

I'm not sure what you mean by primitive, since what you described works on most helicopters, even very modern ones.