AI instantly reacts to ARH missile launch

[opps]

No. Still broken.

[NineLine]

Guys this might take a little longer, we want to fix it right, we are working on a decision matrix based on different factors, scenarios and missiles. We will have more info as we get closer. Thanks.

[GGTharos]

4 minutes ago, NineLine said:

Guys this might take a little longer, we want to fix it right, we are working on a decision matrix based on different factors, scenarios and missiles. We will have more info as we get closer. Thanks.

 

@NineLine

 

Since you are thinking about how to make this right, I would like some ability for user-definable doctrines and tactics.  ED can't cover everything, I'd like the ability to tell the AI what to do based on what the AI 'knows' in the simulation, ie. response to things like RWR warnings (which should have a capability and accuracy representative of that aircraft's equipment as much as possible - at least put in the framework for it) and radar and EWR/AWACS reports.   I'll add some more detail later; this is a complicated issue and the one paragraph doesn't do it justince.

Edited May 5, 2021 by GGTharos

[opps]

Personally I prefer reverting back to pre 2.7 behavior than waiting months for "correct" fix which will introduce another lode of bugs and problems.  

Edited May 5, 2021 by opps

[NineLine]

12 minutes ago, GGTharos said:

 

@NineLine

 

Since you are thinking about how to make this right, I would like some ability for user-definable doctrines and tactics.  ED can't cover everything, I'd like the ability to tell the AI what to do based on what the AI 'knows' in the simulation, ie. response to things like RWR warnings (which should have a capability and accuracy representative of that aircraft's equipment as much as possible - at least put in the framework for it) and radar and EWR/AWACS reports.   I'll add some more detail later; this is a complicated issue and the one paragraph doesn't do it justince.

 

Sure, share anything you want, and I will pass it along. The goal is to make them react as they should based on all those factors, if we need some ME controls as well to make them act a specific way, thats something to consider as well.

3 minutes ago, opps said:

Personally I prefer reverting back to pre 2.7 behavior than waiting months for "correct" fix which will bring another pieces of bugs.  

Their reaction time is the same as before 2.7, their bag of tricks was increased. Either way, march forward, dont look back.

[opps]

Yes, reaction time is same, but it is clear that problem got worse than before. Now simply AI can't fight in BVR arena. Very core part of "COMBAT SIMULATER" is in worst state. March of improving AI will be very long and hard quest as ED already know than any other people. However before starting march it's better to confirm that you are in good state to depart. Proper fix with improved AI is very welcomed but leaving current state for long time is also terrible decision.

Edited May 5, 2021 by opps

[oldcrusty]

There are couple of things that could probably be changed easily. One of them is the way heavy bombers and transports react to an intercept. Every time I picked them up on radar heading directly toward me, they press on, without any consideration of not having fighter escort. I realize some defensive behavior can be set in ME like mission abort, still some basic types of reaction could be coded by default. Fighters armed with missiles have a good 'excuse' to head directly for you no matter what.

Both, fighters and bombers will react to any missile shot immediately, even before R_max, as long as you have them designated in any mode, including TWS. Maddog shots are an exception. The missile has to go active to cause a reaction. In one test I had the heavy bomber (w/ AWACS support) flying toward the merge with me (in the Hornet) despite of me having an SST lock on him from 50 nm out till merge. Nothing intricate, just basic behavior by default.

[Raven01]

I tried to report this behaviour in a separate thread but the topic was closed shortly after:

 

 I realize I'm new on the forum board, and have very few posts, but I've been dedicated to flying the Hornet since early access. I'm glad the issue was finally relayed to the dev team.

Edited May 9, 2021 by Raven01

[davidp57]

Hello @NineLine,
We've experienced the same behavior and made a separate report here.

Hope it helps !

[Exorcet]

On 5/7/2021 at 12:06 AM, Gripes323 said:

There are couple of things that could probably be changed easily. One of them is the way heavy bombers and transports react to an intercept. Every time I picked them up on radar heading directly toward me, they press on, without any consideration of not having fighter escort. I realize some defensive behavior can be set in ME like mission abort, still some basic types of reaction could be coded by default. Fighters armed with missiles have a good 'excuse' to head directly for you no matter what.

Both, fighters and bombers will react to any missile shot immediately, even before R_max, as long as you have them designated in any mode, including TWS. Maddog shots are an exception. The missile has to go active to cause a reaction. In one test I had the heavy bomber (w/ AWACS support) flying toward the merge with me (in the Hornet) despite of me having an SST lock on him from 50 nm out till merge. Nothing intricate, just basic behavior by default.

I think it might be best to not change defaults. They did this for plane reactions to SAM's and it ended up causing problems. The default used to be ignore SAM's until fired upon. Now the AI tries terrain masking, but they prioritize it too much so I basically end up disabling it most of the time.

 

Add the new behaviors as options for the mission creator to pick. Assigning a new default behavior is difficult because of the many, many situations that may pop up in a DCS mission.

[oldcrusty]

1 hour ago, Exorcet said:

I think it might be best to not change defaults. They did this for plane reactions to SAM's and it ended up causing problems. The default used to be ignore SAM's until fired upon. Now the AI tries terrain masking, but they prioritize it too much so I basically end up disabling it most of the time.

 

Add the new behaviors as options for the mission creator to pick. Assigning a new default behavior is difficult because of the many, many situations that may pop up in a DCS mission.

True, more options in the mission creator would do, something like 'press on until/unless... then unleash tactical skills  or abort' Well, abort is there, that's an easy one. 

[Furiz]

What I have noticed with enemy AI is that, for example in the F-16, when I lock the AI with one time TMS UP, so not STT, just a soft lock, the SU25 in pitch black turns right at me, how?!? it doesn't even have AA radar? and if I get into a dogfight with it, it will shoot me down in pitch black no problemo, no NVGs ofc, but that doesn't stop it from knowing where exactly am I.

Not to mention I would have easier time hitting a bee with aim120 than SU25 the stealth bomber.

 

I guess this plane profited the most with these AI bugs.

[near_blind]

This behavior is still present in 2.7.1 despite this entry in the change log:
 

• Aircraft AI. In the case when an active missile is launched in the TWS mode, AI aircraft will begin evasive maneuver only after the missile seeker is turned active.

~70 mile AIM-54 launch in TWS from F-14, AI Reacts instantly and begins dropping CM

~30 mile AIM-120 in TWS from F-15, AI reacts instantly, begins dropping CM

MiGs Chaffing 30m.trk MiGs Chaffing 70m.trk

[Sonoda Umi]

18 hours ago, near_blind said:

This behavior is still present in 2.7.1 despite this entry in the change log:
 

• Aircraft AI. In the case when an active missile is launched in the TWS mode, AI aircraft will begin evasive maneuver only after the missile seeker is turned active.

~70 mile AIM-54 launch in TWS from F-14, AI Reacts instantly and begins dropping CM

~30 mile AIM-120 in TWS from F-15, AI reacts instantly, begins dropping CM

MiGs Chaffing 30m.trk 1.56 MB · 1 download MiGs Chaffing 70m.trk 1.09 MB · 1 download

+1

The same problem here.

[oldcrusty]

just tested this few minutes ago and had  different results.

 

In the first test:  J11 hot, co-altitude @41k.  The bandit never deviated from the straight line or altitude when locked in TWS mode.  When my Amraam was fired, the bandit started punching chaff at a slow rate, no change in his flight path until Amraam went active, then he pulled hard right and down... Kill.  The TWS was never broken. No jamming.

 

In the second test: JF17 hot, 41k. Completely different behavior in spite of both bandits having been set to 'ace'. This time the bandit tried to trick me even before I could see him on my scope. I was heading toward his spike. My AWACS drifted out of range and I suspect this was taken into account in his behavior script. He tried to re-position in vertical and I lost his spike.

There was no other factors involved here, no other assets. He had waypoints at the same altitude on his entire route. This was at about 60 nm range. I was constantly moving my radar's elevation up and down. I found him at 12k feet, rapidly climbing again. I got a stable TWS lock at forty'ish miles.  The bandit was at 36k steady now. The rest of this fight was similar to the first test.  I fired my Amraam in TWS within R_ne, the bandit didn't twitch. He started punching slow chaff. When the missile went active, he almost managed to out maneuver it but the blast got him. The missile tracked nice in both cases. No jammers involved on this one either.

I'll keep running through different setups when I have time, see what happens...

 

EDIT: Forgot to mention I was flying the Hornet.

Edited May 22, 2021 by Gripes323

[Bruce_D]

Before the last patch it was impossible to hit an ACE plane in BVR. Now we can do that!