Is the F-16C the worst dogfighter of its era in DCS right now?

[NineLine]

Moved to chit chat as its not a real valid debate when the FM is still being tuned. Thanks

[feipan]

5 hours ago, unlikely_spider said:

To be fair, dogfighting is a thing of the past. It's not the primary reason why countries purchase planes.

Ok, two planes are coming at each other  in BVR high aspect. Risk level is high and both need to go banzai. Both are stealth fighters and cannot see each other with their radar. Also they have Laser counter measure system equipped against IR missiles. Tell me what will happen. 
 

fun fact: gripen were able to close in to F-22 and splash them in red flag because of their advanced ECM system. 
 

But if you talk about DCS, then yes. 

[Snappy]

On 4/18/2021 at 4:46 AM, Mars Exulte said:

...

 

  Me too, as soon as I can play again, I intend to compete in as many of them as I can. I also intend to use whatever aircraft people consider ''worst'' at the time. Tears of rage taste especially sweet when the victim doesn't at all see it coming

 

  Nothing wrong with that.

 

....

 

Totally looking forward to see you doing exactly that. Seriously am.  I'm afraid you might be in for a rude awakening, but if you actually pull it off even better.

Will check the  future participant lists of the usual big  brawls for your name and hope to see you put this into practice.

 

kind regards,

Snappy

 

 

 

 

Edited April 19, 2021 by Snappy

[Xavven]

Gotta love the big talk. "You're lucky I don't have DCS installed right now or I'd totally kick your butt in a guns-only tournament."

[TobiasA]

vor 8 Stunden schrieb NineLine:

Moved to chit chat as its not a real valid debate when the FM is still being tuned. Thanks

Thanks man. We have like... 4 threads about the WIP flight model.

[Youda]

1 hour ago, TobiasA said:

Thanks man. We have like... 4 threads about the WIP flight model.

Just to clarify, i didn't originally want to talk about flight models and their correctness.

I was asking if there's a reason one would take a Viper into dogfighting competition and how it should be played.

So far i only saw one very abstract theoretical concept, but without any actual demonstration.

[feipan]

Short answer: No

[TobiasA]

Yes, but every thread about that issue turns into a discussion about how the current flight model is wrong, someone (not you) provides calculations for that, then it goes on and on about what everyone knows and ED has already said that the FM is not final and that they are working on it.

If we discuss that, it is not gonna change a thing and all we can do is waiting for an update from ED.

 

Speaking of an update, I am considering going back to 2.5 to be able to fly Viggen again. Stability issues should be highest priority now.

[Mars Exulte]

8 hours ago, Xavven said:

Gotta love the big talk. "You're lucky I don't have DCS installed right now or I'd totally kick your butt in a guns-only tournament."

*yawn*  Oh look, somebody missed the point of literally everything I said. It's almost like I wasted a considerable amount of time trying to reason with min-maxers @@

 

  Whatever, you're all right, I'm wrong. Hornet is teh best, all hail the bug, ED are wasting their time and only the all mighty flat turn determines success or failure. Every small penised country that didn't buy a Hornet is a dirty scrub certain to feed kills to the mighty, well endowed nations that fly Hornets and perform majestic unconquerable maneuver of turning left or right.

[Xavven]

Oh, I heard the point of your posts loud and clear. You've made quite a few boasts along with your points, actually. It will be good to see you back them up with results in the next tournament.

[karasawa]

39 minutes ago, Xavven said:

Oh, I heard the point of your posts loud and clear. You've made quite a few boasts along with your points, actually. It will be good to see you back them up with results in the next tournament.

Please check your message box.

[SCPanda]

On 4/20/2021 at 12:13 AM, unlikely_spider said:

To be fair, dogfighting is a thing of the past. It's not the primary reason why countries purchase planes.

I disagree. In the modern world today, unless there is a huge war between two nations, air to air engagement does not usually take place in BVR, because firing a missile means declaring war. Dogfighting is still a thing in air intercepts. This is very recent 

 

 

Also, airforce of many nations still train their pilots how to dogfight and does BFM practice as well. Even 5th gen stealth fighters consider maneuverability and fox 2s as very important factors in development. 

[SCPanda]

17 hours ago, TobiasA said:

Yes, but every thread about that issue turns into a discussion about how the current flight model is wrong, someone (not you) provides calculations for that, then it goes on and on about what everyone knows and ED has already said that the FM is not final and that they are working on it.

If we discuss that, it is not gonna change a thing and all we can do is waiting for an update from ED.

 

Speaking of an update, I am considering going back to 2.5 to be able to fly Viggen again. Stability issues should be highest priority now.

Sad thing is, Hornet's FM is also still WIP and even when it's released, it was and is now a very capable jet in BFM (both 1 circle and 2 circle). The Viper however, which is known as a deadly jet in dogfighting, has a WIP FM that underperforms and flies like a brick in BFM. 

 

I don't think there were as many people in the Hornet section complaining about how the Hornet was bad at dogfighting and its FM needed a quick rework, because they could and still can pull the paddle to pull 9Gs with no punishment and outrate almost every other fighter jet in DCS. 

 

Also, because people complained, it brought Viper's FM to ED's attention and what is actually wrong with it. ED never voluntarily announced Viper's FM is wrong and underperforming, all I heard from them is how DCS Viper FM is accurate and it matches the real EM diagram. 

Edited April 21, 2021 by SCPanda

[TobiasA]

vor 1 Stunde schrieb SCPanda:

Sad thing is, Hornet's FM is also still WIP and even when it's released, it was and is now a very capable jet in BFM (both 1 circle and 2 circle). The Viper however, which is known as a deadly jet in dogfighting, has a WIP FM that underperforms and flies like a brick in BFM. 

 

I don't think there were as many people in the Hornet section complaining about how the Hornet was bad at dogfighting and its FM needed a quick rework, because they could and still can pull the paddle to pull 9Gs with no punishment and outrate almost every other fighter jet in DCS. 

 

Also, because people complained, it brought Viper's FM to ED's attention and what is actually wrong with it. ED never voluntarily announced Viper's FM is wrong and underperforming, all I heard from them is how DCS Viper FM is accurate and it matches the real EM diagram. 

 

 

I fully agree with you, we early access buyer also are beta testers and it is good that someone points out the FM is off.
However, they agreed on the issue, will work on it and half of the F-16 section is about the flight model issue. Well... Maybe because it is because it's only somewhat usable for A-A right now so people are mainly using it for that.

I really hope for the next update. Mainly to be able to fly the Viggen and to have somewhat reliable multiplayer again, but maybe they'll bring some Viper fixes as well.

[SCPanda]

53 minutes ago, Rick50 said:

 

How does angle of attack fit into this? I mean, I seem to remember from a very very long time ago that the original Hornets were able to pull more angle of attack than most / all other fighters of that era, and that fighter pilots did like that, it wasn't the end-all be-all of dogfighting, but a nice to have.

 

I mean, I know the Viper can do a bit of this, but from what I understand it's not able to pull a bendybus like a Flanker or Hornet can!

 

So I'm wondering if some are complaining "its no good" because they maybe expect to be able to really wrench it into high alpha to get a shot, because they can do that in the Hornet module?

 

I ask this in part because while some would know this data in great depth, sometimes when a large mass of people complain, you later notice that many of them, sometimes even the majority, don't really know what they are talking about, but they "know this is wrong" while being wrong. Not talking anything specific, more the observation that sometimes it really is just rats leading themselves off a cliff.

 

 

I guess you haven't read about what people are complaining regarding Viper's FM and the communication between players and the dev team in the forum? You just assumed people are complaining Viper cannot match Hornet's AOA, and they have no knowledge what they are talking about? You are wrong. 

 

The fact is, I haven't seen anyone complained or even questioned about Viper's AOA limitations, because we all know Viper is pretty AOA limited by the FLCS, unlike the Hornet. The current problems with Viper's FM is the G onset, lift curve (causing higher energy bleed) , and ITR. To be clear, these are what I've read in the forum, and have been confirmed by ED. I have never made any claimed regarding these issues myself, because I am not an expert, but there are some people in the forum with decent knowledge about these stuff. 

 

We all know a Viper will lose a 1 circle fight against a Hornet due to its AOA limited by FLCS, but the Viper should be able to outrate a Hornet in real life, but it's the other way around in DCS. Hornet will murder Viper in a rate fight with the current FM in DCS.

 

Please do some reading and don't accuse people of complaining because they are ignorant and are just "rats leading themselves off a cliff". 

 

Edited April 21, 2021 by SCPanda

[LanceCrown]

vor 5 Stunden schrieb SCPanda:

I disagree. In the modern world today, unless there is a huge war between two nations, air to air engagement does not usually take place in BVR, because firing a missile means declaring war. Dogfighting is still a thing in air intercepts. This is very recent 

 

 

Also, airforce of many nations still train their pilots how to dogfight and does BFM practice as well. Even 5th gen stealth fighters consider maneuverability and fox 2s as very important factors in development. 

 

How is firing a missile a declaration of war, but shooting with guns is not?

 

Also side note: Did anybody else notice how the Fuel message in the hud dissapears once the lock circle drifts towards where the fuel message is? Can be seen at 1:13.

Wonder if that is implemented in DCS.

 

Disclaimer: i'm a "low-information-fighter jock" with no idea

[Xavven]

4 hours ago, LanceCrown said:

 

How is firing a missile a declaration of war, but shooting with guns is not?

 

Also side note: Did anybody else notice how the Fuel message in the hud dissapears once the lock circle drifts towards where the fuel message is? Can be seen at 1:13.

Wonder if that is implemented in DCS.

 

Disclaimer: i'm a "low-information-fighter jock" with no idea

 

Gunning them down would be an act of war. In this particular confrontation between Greek and Turkish F-16s, they didn't actually fire, thankfully.

 

I'm just speculating here, but getting to their control zone and having a weapons solution is analogous to putting someone in an arm lock and escorting them off the premises.  Greek F-16s came into airspace that Turkey declared was theirs for a naval exercise. The intercept was a stern warning to stop doing what you're doing and leave the area. What better way to do that than demonstrate you have a firing solution and they do not?

Edited April 21, 2021 by Xavven

[LanceCrown]

Ah, yes. That sounds like a reasonable explanation.

[Mars Exulte]

1 hour ago, Xavven said:

 

I'm just speculating here, but getting to their control zone and having a weapons solution is analogous to putting someone in an arm lock and escorting them off the premises.  Greek F-16s came into airspace that Turkey declared was theirs for a naval exercise. The intercept was a stern warning to stop doing what you're doing and leave the area.

 

  This is basically a Turkish propaganda video ''look how we chased off the Greeks''

 

  Notice he peaks at less than 4g, is at 2g most the time. They are maneuvering gently onto non-maneuvering Greeks while excitedly shouting tacticool phrases for the audience's benefit. It's really easy to get a guns track on somebody that is completely ignoring you.

[Youda]

Btw, this is what happens to you when you think you have enough energy advantage over the Hornet.

 

[darkman222]

Meanwhile in F16 land:

 

 

I know F18 is ahead in development, but what was ED expecting to happen... expectations are and were high.

Edited April 21, 2021 by darkman222

[SCPanda]

On 4/21/2021 at 5:35 PM, LanceCrown said:

 

How is firing a missile a declaration of war, but shooting with guns is not?

 

Also side note: Did anybody else notice how the Fuel message in the hud dissapears once the lock circle drifts towards where the fuel message is? Can be seen at 1:13.

Wonder if that is implemented in DCS.

 

Disclaimer: i'm a "low-information-fighter jock" with no idea

Pretty sure Russians will try to get close into visual range (and even as close as formation flying) with to intercept a NATO jet flying into Russian airspace instead of firing a long range radar guided missile straight away. 

 

My point is since you don't start shooting BVR missiles to intercept a foreign jet whose nation is not at full scale war with you, you will probably end up doing BFM with the bandit like the Turkey and Greece does. Therefore dogfighting ability is still an important factor in modern fighter development. 

 

Whether actually firing guns & fox 2s or not, that's a complicated question. Depends on how the intruder respond to your interception and if the chain of command clears you to fire. Things like politics will get involved so I don't wanna get into that discussion. 

 

Still, dogfighting is important. That's the point I am trying to make. 

Edited April 23, 2021 by SCPanda

[SCPanda]

On 4/22/2021 at 6:30 AM, darkman222 said:

Meanwhile in F16 land:

 

 

I know F18 is ahead in development, but what was ED expecting to happen... expectations are and were high.

 

Yep, ED needs to learn from Deka and Heatblur. Or hire more people to do the job.

 

"EA is a long process"... I have heard this from ED so many times....

[feipan]

The aggravating thing about this particular bug is not that ED does not acknowledge it, ED labels it correct-as-is instead. Same with the FM in the beginning. 

Edited April 25, 2021 by feipan

[Ala13_ManOWar]

On 4/23/2021 at 11:58 AM, SCPanda said:

Yep, ED needs to learn from Deka and Heatblur. Or hire more people to do the job.

 

"EA is a long process"... I have heard this from ED so many times....

Or perhaps third parties have to learn how to create their own whole platform for a hardcore flight sim instead of depending on others so they "just" have to make a model and drop it in .

Sometimes I don't really know what you guys smoke before making that kind of statements . No, really, I don't know, tell me or at least share a bit of it, uh?

 

S!

Edited April 26, 2021 by Ala13_ManOWar