Is the F-16C the worst dogfighter of its era in DCS right now?

[Youda]

This may look like a bad joke, but it's a serious question. Is there any reason to pick the current F-16C into any kind of dogfighting competition like Folds of Honor? Because i just can't see any.

 

I created myself a simple performance test map and did some basic flight tests with different aircrafts and i can say the following.

 

F-16C

Has a hard G limit of 9 that cannot be overriden and the FCS will usually stop you already at 8.7.

Has a hard AoA limit at 24 degrees that cannot be overriden.

Sustained turn rate is kinda disapointing and the bleed rate under 400 knots is rather high.

 

F-14B

Has a theoretical G limit in manual of 6.5 Gs but practically you have to exceed 18 Gs for the wings to snap off.

Has no FCS AoA limit, it can spike up to 45 degrees and with some practice you can maintain 30 degree turn.

Max sustained turn rate is simmilar, but at much lower speed and therefore lower radius.

 

F-15C

Has a theoretical G limit in manual of 9 Gs but practically you can make it turn 12 Gs without any consequences.

Has no FCS AoA limit, it can spike up to 45 degrees and with some practice you can maintain 30 degree turn.

Sustained turn rate is slightly higher at all altitudes and all but the lowest speeds.

 

F-18C

Has a FCS G limit of 6.5, but that can be overriden to reach 9.0 and sometimes even higher.

Has no FCS AoA limit and can keep turning up to 40 degrees.

Max sustained turn rate is higher everywhere except above 20 000 feet and above 400 knots.

 

Mig-29

Higher G limit, higher AoA limit, higher sustained turn rate. Nothing to discuss. Only little bit less stable and harder to aim with.

 

Su-27

This is the only jet i feel i have some chance against. Its FCS limits the Gs and AoA quite a lot, you can override it but then you're risking ripping the wings off or losing control. It has actually lower sustained turn rate, but on the other hand it is super-maneuverable. This is the only fair BFM opponent for the F-16 imho.

 

 

I would really love to fly the F-16 in BFM, but i just can't find a reason to, because there seem to be better alternatives for just about every possible tactic. The only advantage to the other aircrafts is that it can accelerate faster in a straight line, but that's not really useful in a dogfight.

 

I won't go into arguing whether this is realistic or not, because i don't have enough info. It just feels little disappointing that the F-16 with such a strong public reputation as an excellent dogfighter is actually rather poor here in DCS.

[Contact409]

capable player with Su-27 can S key it and out radius everything.  Zoom up play the energy game is the only way to deal it. 

 

Your basic assessment are correct, F16 currently only playable in same type bfm fight.  Anything twin engined involves DACT, F16 losses. (Can't say about JF-17 and M2000. Didn't fight against them in pvp alot with F16.)

Edited April 12, 2021 by Contact409

[Youda]

Forgot about the Mirage, that one is possibly beatable in rate too. But the JF-17? No way.

[Contact409]

I concur with your assessment. It is frustrating.

 

We have gone through this conversation with Nineline and other guys, they said they will look into it.I remember last conversation was about the Instantaneous turn rate or G-acceleration. Thread was closed by admin, marked W.I.P 

 

Hopefully, After 2.7, F-18 move out from EA, they can shift focus to Viper. 

Edited April 12, 2021 by Contact409

[WHOGX5]

There is literally no reason to use the F-16 in BFM at the moment. The Viper was made to fight at high speeds and high G's. If you try to do that in DCS you'll black out instantly so I don't even bother. I'll wait for however many years it takes for ED to update the G-LOC until I touch BFM again in the Viper. After that, we can start talking about aircraft performance.

[StevanJ]

3 hours ago, Youda said:

This may look like a bad joke, but it's a serious question. Is there any reason to pick the current F-16C into any kind of dogfighting competition like Folds of Honor? Because i just can't see any.

 

I created myself a simple performance test map and did some basic flight tests with different aircrafts and i can say the following.

 

F-16C

Has a hard G limit of 9 that cannot be overriden and the FCS will usually stop you already at 8.7.

Has a hard AoA limit at 24 degrees that cannot be overriden.

Sustained turn rate is kinda disapointing and the bleed rate under 400 knots is rather high.

 

F-14B

Has a theoretical G limit in manual of 6.5 Gs but practically you have to exceed 18 Gs for the wings to snap off.

Has no FCS AoA limit, it can spike up to 45 degrees and with some practice you can maintain 30 degree turn.

Max sustained turn rate is simmilar, but at much lower speed and therefore lower radius.

 

F-15C

Has a theoretical G limit in manual of 9 Gs but practically you can make it turn 12 Gs without any consequences.

Has no FCS AoA limit, it can spike up to 45 degrees and with some practice you can maintain 30 degree turn.

Sustained turn rate is slightly higher at all altitudes and all but the lowest speeds.

 

F-18C

Has a FCS G limit of 6.5, but that can be overriden to reach 9.0 and sometimes even higher.

Has no FCS AoA limit and can keep turning up to 40 degrees.

Max sustained turn rate is higher everywhere except above 20 000 feet and above 400 knots.

 

Mig-29

Higher G limit, higher AoA limit, higher sustained turn rate. Nothing to discuss. Only little bit less stable and harder to aim with.

 

Su-27

This is the only jet i feel i have some chance against. Its FCS limits the Gs and AoA quite a lot, you can override it but then you're risking ripping the wings off or losing control. It has actually lower sustained turn rate, but on the other hand it is super-maneuverable. This is the only fair BFM opponent for the F-16 imho.

 

 

I would really love to fly the F-16 in BFM, but i just can't find a reason to, because there seem to be better alternatives for just about every possible tactic. The only advantage to the other aircrafts is that it can accelerate faster in a straight line, but that's not really useful in a dogfight.

 

I won't go into arguing whether this is realistic or not, because i don't have enough info. It just feels little disappointing that the F-16 with such a strong public reputation as an excellent dogfighter is actually rather poor here in DCS.

Err, Why havent you listed the F-86?

 

 

[Xavven]

1 hour ago, StevanJ said:

Err, Why havent you listed the F-86?

 

 

 

LOL!!! The F-16 killing itself is somehow appropriate to this thread

[StevanJ]

4 minutes ago, Xavven said:

 

LOL!!! The F-16 killing itself is somehow appropriate to this thread

I feel you, How about we let ED finish the module before we give it a bad review?

[Mover]

3 hours ago, WHOGX5 said:

There is literally no reason to use the F-16 in BFM at the moment. The Viper was made to fight at high speeds and high G's. If you try to do that in DCS you'll black out instantly so I don't even bother. I'll wait for however many years it takes for ED to update the G-LOC until I touch BFM again in the Viper. After that, we can start talking about aircraft performance.

 

Why not just turn the G-forces off?

[SCPanda]

48 minutes ago, Mover said:

 

Why not just turn the G-forces off?

Hi Mover!

Unfortunately, turning G effect off still doesn't work. The FM of the DCS F-16 is bugged at the moment. It requires too much AOA to reach certain Gs and it bleeds energy way too much. This is what I read from this topic "A DCS clean F-16C-50 needs 23.3deg AOA to reach 8.5G at mach 0.75, while a loaded real life F-16C-50 needs only 15deg AOA to reach 9G at mach 0.67!" ED confirmed it as well. 

 

 

Basically the Viper is a brick in BFM in the current state. Can't outrate anything... well, maybe an A-10 

 

[oldtimesake]

Now the DCS F-16 required twice the amount of AOA to reach the same G compared to real F-16 block50, resulting in more induced drag (could be a factor of 4). Confirmed by ED

 

The DCS F-16 also suffers from lower acceleration than the real one. Either the thrust or the drag or both are broken:

 

[oldtimesake]

The DCS F-16 is right about only one thing: its sustained rate of turn above Mach 0.8. To avoid blackout I recommend doing 2 circle fight above 10000 feet and above Mach 0.8. It actually out-rates most other jets in this condition.

 

It seems the DCS F-16 also suffers more from empty pylons than F-18 (performance-wise).

[oldtimesake]

For the lift curve issue, I strongly recommend ED to read this paper:

"Webb, T.S., Kent, D.R., Webb, J.B. Correlation of F-16 aerodynamics and performance predictions with early flight test results. Agard Conference Proceedings. n 242, 1977"

(This paper is before year 1982 so it does not violate forum law 1.16)

A real F-16 has a lift curve slope of 0.1 below Cl=0.6, and a lift curve slope of 0.09 below Cl=0.8. In DCS it's like 0.04~0.05.

(Some letters are removed but you can guess the units)

 

Remember this is for Mach>0.9. Below that speed RSS aircraft (relaxed stability) generally has even higher lift curve slope due to reduced aerodynamic center shift.

Edited April 13, 2021 by oldtimesake

[oldtimesake]

https://www.f-16.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=53852&sid=8cb59b759f14db5dc52cb736f422f712

 

This is in line with my experience: fight above 10000 feet and Mach 0.8 and you have a sustained G advantage (12.8%) over your opponent.

Edited April 13, 2021 by oldtimesake

[falcon_120]

To make up for it, ED gave him an F15 radar and the possibility to run on the deck at M1.4 easily, so you are king in BVR and can run from any problem.

 

On a more serious note, we should wait a bit more after the F18 is out of EA and more resources can be shifted to the Viper.

[Mover]

8 hours ago, SCPanda said:

Hi Mover!

Unfortunately, turning G effect off still doesn't work. The FM of the DCS F-16 is bugged at the moment. It requires too much AOA to reach certain Gs and it bleeds energy way too much. This is what I read from this topic "A DCS clean F-16C-50 needs 23.3deg AOA to reach 8.5G at mach 0.75, while a loaded real life F-16C-50 needs only 15deg AOA to reach 9G at mach 0.67!" ED confirmed it as well. 

 

 

Basically the Viper is a brick in BFM in the current state. Can't outrate anything... well, maybe an A-10 

 

 

It's my understanding that they're fixing that in the next update, no?

 

I just meant turning off the G-effects to get rid of the GLOC stuff.  

[Tango3B]

21 minutes ago, Mover said:

 

It's my understanding that they're fixing that in the next update, no?

 

I just meant turning off the G-effects to get rid of the GLOC stuff.  

I would not hold my breath for the FM to be updated in the upcoming 2.7 patch. ED's statement is that we will see an update in a future patch which can basically mean any time between now and christmas. As a Viper driver it is probably expedient to start a little excercise in expectation management for the upcoming big patch concerning the fact no other content update except for the HARM was officially announced. Other than that we will probably only see some minor fixes and I hope one of them is the unholy RWS-SAM bug. But that's of course just my guess what to expect tomorrow. Oh well, hope dies last, right...?

[Youda]

6 hours ago, Tango3B said:

I would not hold my breath for the FM to be updated in the upcoming 2.7 patch. ED's statement is that we will see an update in a future patch which can basically mean any time between now and christmas.

Even next Christmas would still be great. At least they acknowledged the problem and showed some intention of getting it right. Unlike Gaijin that denies everything, indirectly tells you that you don't know anything about it, and then silently fixes it 2 years later without mentioning it in change log, so that they don't have to admit they had it wrong.

[wilbur81]

22 hours ago, Youda said:

 

 

F-18C

Has a FCS G limit of 6.5, but that can be overriden to reach 9.0 and sometimes even higher.

Has no FCS AoA limit and can keep turning up to 40 degrees.

 

 

 

Hornet's max FCS G limit is 7.5 and players that are shooting for realism in their sim-ming experience (like myself) never use the paddle-switch G-overide during BFM. 

And yes, the Hornet's great strength is no practical AoA limit in the FCS.

[Tango3B]

1 hour ago, Youda said:

Even next Christmas would still be great. At least they acknowledged the problem and showed some intention of getting it right. Unlike Gaijin that denies everything, indirectly tells you that you don't know anything about it, and then silently fixes it 2 years later without mentioning it in change log, so that they don't have to admit they had it wrong.

Yes, you are absolutely right. And I very much appreciate the road which ED takes to deal with that issue. By the way, my reply to your post was meant just as a sober statement to not be disappointed and manage general expectations if the patchnotes for the Viper might appear to be a little sparse tomorrow. And you know that some will be searching for their pitchforks and torches, already...

[SparxOne]

2 hours ago, Youda said:

Unlike Gaijin that denies everything, indirectly tells you that you don't know anything about it, and then silently fixes it 2 years later without mentioning it in change log, so that they don't have to admit they had it wrong.

 

Nothing against you here, but Gayjin itself is no reference at all in simulating real things, mentioning them doesn't even need to be done, they are on a complete different league.

[Hulkbust44]

4 hours ago, wilbur81 said:

Hornet's max FCS G limit is 7.5 and players that are shooting for realism in their sim-ming experience (like myself) never use the paddle-switch G-overide during BFM. 

And yes, the Hornet's great strength is no practical AoA limit in the FCS.

Also remember that the Hornet can pull through the 7.5 soft limit without paddle.

[wilbur81]

4 minutes ago, Hulkbust44 said:

Also remember that the Hornet can pull through the 7.5 soft limit without paddle.

For a split second, yes.

[jojojung]

Am 13.4.2021 um 06:14 schrieb oldtimesake:

The DCS F-16 is right about only one thing: its sustained rate of turn above Mach 0.8. To avoid blackout I recommend doing 2 circle fight above 10000 feet and above Mach 0.8. It actually out-rates most other jets in this condition.

 

It seems the DCS F-16 also suffers more from empty pylons than F-18 (performance-wise).

I think there is a drag bug in the F18 FCS at the moment.
Maybe related to my reportings in this thread:

But ED is investigating this since feb. with no answer yet

[mytai01]

I think the DCS: F-16C flight model is at the rough draft stage of development. It needed something to get it out the door. I'm sure it was always going to be refined, but they don't advertise that point...